Who Invented Jazz/Rock- Fusion??

Batchain1001 · **Posted:** Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:37 am

Of course one of the last places you would expect to find "Jazz" is in Edgard Varèse but it's absolutely, undeniably right there in "Hyperprism".

--Bat

rumour man · **Posted:** Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:58 pm

calvin2hikers wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Wyx5BtnPEg

This discussion is over.

sleeping in a jar wrote:

WOW!!! That's a young Joe Zawinul on keys, isn't it? I KNEW he was ahead of Miles! Thanks, Cal!

LMAO at both of them posts.

sleeping in a jar · **Posted:** Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:33 pm

rumour man wrote:

"The best lack all conviction while the worst are filled with passionate intensity"

Surely some revelation is at hand!

rumour man · **Posted:** Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:02 am

sleeping in a jar wrote:

rumour man wrote:

"The best lack all conviction while the worst are filled with passionate intensity"

Surely some revelation is at hand!

hand you say?

http://www.zappa.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14243

massagio · **Posted:** Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:04 am

theres different types of jazz. you all know that! but ¨when i say 20 small cigars is the best example of ordinary jazz in the FZ catalog i dont mean that 20 small cigars is the pure jazz. also i dont think of king kong as a jazz tune.

Mr_Green_Genes · **Posted:** Thu May 12, 2016 6:29 am

Ronny's Noomies · **Posted:** Thu May 12, 2016 11:53 am

I'll jump in. I always cringe when someone says Frank invented fusion or jazz-rock or whatever you call it. I hear very little jazz in his work, and he often criticized jazz. I think he was something different. He won artist of the year for Downbeat several times, which I also laughed at. Hot Rats is often thought to be jazzy, but where? It's highly orchestrated with rock solos.

I love fusion and wish it hadn't died so young. New Age killed it, when the record companies dumbed it down for tone deaf yuppies.

Weather Report. Now that's jazz rock, or maybe even just jazz. Still listen to them all the time.

brainpang · **Joined:** Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:33 am **Posts:** 4237

Major Touchstone, maybe even IT:

John Handy -- Live at Monterey Jazz Festival (recorded Sept. 18, 1965 released 1966)

sax, violin, guitar, bass, drums.

2 tracks.

Big Seller at the time, too. Orig copies dirt cheap, the 1970 re-issue even cheaper. A forgotten monster. Anyone into MUSIC was aware. The performance "a sensation," according to allmusic.

brainpang · **Joined:** Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:33 am **Posts:** 4237

Ronny's Noomies wrote:

I'll jump in. I always cringe when someone says Frank invented fusion or jazz-rock or whatever you call it. I hear very little jazz in his work, and he often criticized jazz. I think he was something different. He won artist of the year for Downbeat several times, which I also laughed at. Hot Rats is often thought to be jazzy, but where? It's highly orchestrated with rock solos.

I love fusion and wish it hadn't died so young. New Age killed it, when the record companies dumbed it down for tone deaf yuppies.

Weather Report. Now that's jazz rock, or maybe even just jazz. Still listen to them all the time.

New Age killed Fusion? That confuses me! I have no idea what you speak of.

Fusion likely killed itself in search of upper middle class white boys looking to freak out! And be taken seriously at the same time. Educated.

BRAVO SIERRA · **Joined:** Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:11 am **Posts:** 4859

Jazz Rock is different from Fusion, Jazz rock is, chicago, BS&t, Ten Wheel drive, Cold Blood , Fusion is Return to Forever, Headhunters, Bary Miles, Jeff Lorber.

wakawazoo · **Posted:** Thu May 12, 2016 2:04 pm

I agree about the fact that music evolves and nobody should get the full credit. However, this is pretty early (from the album E.S.P, '65):

https://youtu.be/FeRZPQS0Q98

It's not fusion yet, but it's already pointing on that direction.

brainpang · **Joined:** Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:33 am **Posts:** 4237

gotta throw in Alice Coltrane as a mover & shaker.

Retarded forum people above must die.

Mr_Green_Genes · **Posted:** Thu May 12, 2016 2:46 pm

I guess, as always, sometimes it is a blurred line...

is this jazz-rock or fusion?

Return to Forever featuring Bill Connors:
https://youtu.be/DHVNIqbncrM?t=11m56s

sleeping in a jar · **Posted:** Thu May 12, 2016 6:15 pm

Mr_Green_Genes wrote:

I guess, as always, sometimes it is a blurred line...

is this jazz-rock or fusion?

Allan Holdsworth
Soft Machine (Third, Fourth, Grides, Noisette, Virtually, etc.)
The Dixie Dregs
Gong (Gazeuse, Shamal, Expresso II, Time Is the Key)
Bruford (One of A Kind)
Zappa (Hot Rats, Waka/Jawaka, The Grand Wazoo)
National Health

To name a few...

Ronny's Noomies · **Posted:** Fri May 13, 2016 8:18 am

brainpang wrote:

Ronny's Noomies wrote:

I'll jump in. I always cringe when someone says Frank invented fusion or jazz-rock or whatever you call it. I hear very little jazz in his work, and he often criticized jazz. I think he was something different. He won artist of the year for Downbeat several times, which I also laughed at. Hot Rats is often thought to be jazzy, but where? It's highly orchestrated with rock solos.

I love fusion and wish it hadn't died so young. New Age killed it, when the record companies dumbed it down for tone deaf yuppies.

Weather Report. Now that's jazz rock, or maybe even just jazz. Still listen to them all the time.

New Age killed Fusion? That confuses me! I have no idea what you speak of.

Fusion likely killed itself in search of upper middle class white boys looking to freak out! And be taken seriously at the same time. Educated.

Jean Luc Ponty is a good example. His first few albums were adventurous, extended melodies, complex arrangements, blistering solos,etc. But then he realized the new age crowd likes the lighter stuff. So he ended up with simple heads and lackluster solos, tailored to that audience. He lost his edge, but sold a lot of albums, and his solo work today is still boring compared to those earlier efforts. There are other bands with the same arc: Michael Urbaniak, Passport, Al Dimeola, etc. Dumbing it down for the yupsters was enormously lucrative back then.

True, I agree it's too strong to say new age killed fusion, but I do think it certainly was a factor.

New age killed world music too, but that's another story....

Mr_Green_Genes · **Posted:** Fri May 13, 2016 9:43 am

This one could go on the solid 90s albums:

Stanley Clarke, Al Di Meola & Jean-Luc Ponty The Rite Of Strings
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJsv6mDeVuo

Disco Boy · **Posted:** Fri May 13, 2016 4:41 pm

Ronny's Noomies wrote:

Jean Luc Ponty is a good example. His first few albums were adventurous, extended melodies, complex arrangements, blistering solos,etc. But then he realized the new age crowd likes the lighter stuff. So he ended up with simple heads and lackluster solos, tailored to that audience. He lost his edge, but sold a lot of albums, and his solo work today is still boring compared to those earlier efforts. There are other bands with the same arc: Michael Urbaniak, Passport, Al Dimeola, etc. Dumbing it down for the yupsters was enormously lucrative back then.

Hogwash.

Civilized Evil, Mystical Adventures & Individual Choice are FULL of intricate arrangements.

Also, even during jazz fusion's commercial peak in the '70s, most albums didn't sell shit. The most popular fusion titles barely sold 250,000 copies each in the US, if that...

downer mydnyte · **Joined:** Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:55 pm **Posts:** 5396

sleeping in a jar wrote:

Soft Machine

Live recordings from 1967 reveal that SM were definitely playing a new kind of fusion of styles. Ratledge pulls some solo's from this year that could be described as his most ferocious. Jazz and classical and rock n roll colliding. I don't have it off the top of my head, but there's a couple somewhat shitty sounding, well circulated boots out there. Frighteningly good.

I get what Ronny is saying. Some of these so called fusion bands lightened up their sound and went for some well earned cash- after years on the road playing clubs- as the lifeless yuppie jazz of the late 70s really kicked in. Understandable to an extent. Most realized later, though, that they had been trapped. Other supposed jazz musicians actually started at that rancid point. The sound of jazz dying. When the fad ended that was also the end of many of them. Thankfully.

slime.oofytv.set · **Joined:** Sun Feb 16, 2003 7:29 pm **Posts:** 10257

al gore

sleeping in a jar · **Posted:** Sat May 14, 2016 4:21 pm

slime.oofytv.set wrote:

al gore

+1

As an alternative to the usual fusion suspects, I'd highly recommend Tribal Tech. This is a great place to start:

Here's the first track, complete with faux smooth jazz intro:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CjUnO14kuk

Ronny's Noomies · **Posted:** Sat May 14, 2016 6:06 pm

Some of Scott Hendersons solo albums are also excellent.

Ronny's Noomies · **Posted:** Sat May 14, 2016 6:28 pm

Disco Boy wrote:

Ronny's Noomies wrote:

Jean Luc Ponty is a good example. His first few albums were adventurous, extended melodies, complex arrangements, blistering solos,etc. But then he realized the new age crowd likes the lighter stuff. So he ended up with simple heads and lackluster solos, tailored to that audience. He lost his edge, but sold a lot of albums, and his solo work today is still boring compared to those earlier efforts. There are other bands with the same arc: Michael Urbaniak, Passport, Al Dimeola, etc. Dumbing it down for the yupsters was enormously lucrative back then.

Hogwash.

Civilized Evil, Mystical Adventures & Individual Choice are FULL of intricate arrangements.

Also, even during jazz fusion's commercial peak in the '70s, most albums didn't sell shit. The most popular fusion titles barely sold 250,000 copies each in the US, if that...

I look at CE as the transition from fusion to fusion lite. It has a few songs in the old JLP style, but is much simpler than Aurora, imaginary voyage and Enigmatic Ocean. I like a few tunes from A Taste for Passion tho.
I agree that fusion wasn't usually lucrative. That's why some acts turned to New Age, which did pay better, as I recall, in its hay day.

Ronny's Noomies · **Posted:** Sat May 14, 2016 6:28 pm

Oops...

Mr_Green_Genes · **Posted:** Sun May 15, 2016 3:55 am

sleeping in a jar wrote:

slime.oofytv.set wrote:

al gore

+1

As an alternative to the usual fusion suspects, I'd highly recommend Tribal Tech. This is a great place to start:

Here's the first track, complete with faux smooth jazz intro:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CjUnO14kuk

Zappa would dig that warning!

downer mydnyte · **Joined:** Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:55 pm **Posts:** 5396

sleeping in a jar wrote:

As an alternative to the usual fusion suspects

Nice.

Gogo Penguin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HtuAh62Dc4
Black Sabbath Iron Man covered by The Bad Plus. I love the coda!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EVBUCHJvVo

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Who Invented Jazz/Rock- Fusion??

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