Zappa.com

Just wondering how people on this forum feel about this subject with the Coppenhagen summit going on.

My own feelings , based on what I can gather over the years , seems to make me tend to think that yes , global warming is happening , which to me , is not really a bad thing.
I like it warm.
Stuff grows , plants florish , animals and people eat . Not all bad.

BUT... the big question is ... HOW MUCH IS MAN TO BLAME ( or praise ) ?

I was told hurricains would get stronger , with many more , and ice would be melting on both poles when , in fact , one is shrinking while the other is growing. Hmmm

It seems to me that if restrictions are enforced by world leaders , it could be a good thing , but only for ecconomic reasons and not envirormental.

Enforcing a ' Cap and Trade ' policy would certainly create jobs , in certain sectors , and definately have a positive impact on the ecconomy , if done right.

BUT ...... I have a big problem with the ' GREENIES ' who thwarted nuclear power in the United States , and left us to COAL and hydroelectic for our energy.

Interested in how the forum feels about this subject , especially those across the pond.

Thanks

Actually it would be a good thing for environmental restrictions, regardless of the polar ice situation. If you look at the earth as a complete system (by which I mean every living thing interconnected,) then it becomes apparent that without some degree of modification of human behavior the environment will become unsuitable to the human species. As the apex predator we rely the most heavily on the prosperity and flourishing of what we might wish to call lower species (I think that's bullshit but do what ya like.) If for example we continue to pollute the air and that affects the clouds then that affects the rain then that affects the water, then that affects the fish which we rely on as food supply. It just takes more steps to see the obvious consequences of our behavior than most people are willing to follow through, it's easier to just say it's god's will.

Having said that, I don't think anything will come of it, the corporations have virtually complete control of the governments of the world, ours here in the USA and yours there in EU, Asia too. What big business wants it gets. And seriously, why would the powers that be give a shit if all of us lowly peasants died, they will still have the money and power to secure a comfortable environment for themselves whatever may come.
The only reason we peasants have had a good run of things is it suited the needs of the power structure, our labor increased their wealth, their power, and they were perfectly able to contain any semblance of uprising for the most part. That which they could not contain they have efficiently co-opted. However now that the divisions have become somewhat more apparent to more of us peasants (thanks in part to the internet,) it is becoming more of a reasonable option to allow us to perish in famine and futile wars. Thus allowing them to continue in their lifestyle uninterrupted.

Now some religious minded people might think that all of this means the end times, not me. I just think things will continue to be more unpleasant until such time as the situation is completely untenable, then and only then will the remaining population finally work in the necessary way for real change, it will be bloody and it will be ugly and what will be on the other side of it is uncertain.

There is one other possibility, we never bother to change (we are so very dumb and self important, created in the image of god and all that shit) we make it impossible for the species to continue, good riddance. Evolution continues, next batter up.

_________________
"Whose foot is to be the measure to which ours are all to be cut or stretched? Is a priest to be our inquisitor, or shall a layman, simple as ourselves, set up his reason as the rule for what we are to read and what we must believe?" T.J.

The climate is changing, and mankind might be helping it along, but we are not the only cause. The climate of the Earth changed many times before we showed up. Cap and trade is about soaking money out of people and establishing some world control.

If mankind is the sole blame for climate change, then we are doomed...because we'd have to go back to living like cavemen to have any real effect on the change. That isn't going to happen. Like one of the uglies says, humans will go on being human until they break something serious and get themselves decimated big time. Earth will always win, and survive...

...life on Earth? eh, maybe...

Carbon dioxide makes up roughly 3 percent of the greenhouse gasses, the vast majority being water vapour. Of the massive amounts of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere (which is a necessary building block of life, we wouldn`t be here without it) estimates on humans contribution range from 3 to .01% of total carbon emissions. We are nothing when it comes to climate. While Earth was undergoing a warming period (as it tends to do in various cycles) lo and behold so was almost every planetary body in the solar system. Go check it out on Nasa`s site! Do you think it was the Sun maybe?
Now to the wishes of various corporations, governments, and ESPECIALLY central banks, global warming represents the most powerful population control device ever invented, (oh ya, it was invented, Club of Rome documents from the seventies stated they would use climatalogical fearmongering to make humans the enemy and enact global controls.) A tax on what you breathe, literally! Note all the talk about methane emisions from cows? Why not tax your steak, your car, the heating of your home, it never ends, and what Copenhagen is discussing is a global tax paid to PRIVATE BANKS directly. What does this have to do with the environment? Of course smog is a serious health issue, and gasoline is full of toxic chemicals noone wants to breathe, alternative energy has to be investigated and implemented, it's called progress! Unfortunately the oil companies and bankers have been buying up patents and silencing alternative energy for decades. The list of possibilities for humanity they have destroyed is endless. What do these companies care if there is more tax on oil? They fund the environmental groups, remember they own all the alternative energy patents and are spedning loads of money on developing some (not the really good ones that could create virtually free energy for all of humanity, Nikola Tesla anyone?) but the methods they can retain control of as society progresses. Global warming is ultimately a massive scam (research climategate and the leaked East Anglia emails to see how top climatologists have been conciously fudging the data to suit their premise, and actively blacklisting scientists who disagree) to further remove our rights as humans and instigate what Al Gore now admits is a new religion of self loathing and the original sin of being born, therefore exhaling the demon gas carbon dioxide. One child policy anyone? Coming to a nation near you!!!

_________________
For my clinically insane music
http://routenote.com/album/FOWL
http://www.myspace.com/fowlmusic
http://www.last.fm/music/fowl
http://www.deezer.com/en/#music/fowl
Your mental health requires buying my cd

I Believe it's happening, but I think it's just a natural cycle as the earth goes through periodic ice ages and temperature rises. I don't think it's man-made but I do think they'll use it to squeeze as much fun out of our lives and as much money out of us as they possibly can.

You can't really believe mainstream, establishment science now in the way you once could, as they're all sponsored by big business and when you get scientists who do speak the truth, they get sacked, discredited and ostracised by their own peers.

There's been so much shit put out as "fact" regarding this issue already that it really does smell like a big stitch up and apparently the Copenhagen Conference put out the same carbon emissions in a few days, that an entire African Country does in a whole year. So it really makes you wonder what the fuck is going on.

The real danger to the earth is over-population and I believe all this hype over Global Warming will be a smokescreen for a mass cull, that will take place slowly over the next 100 years or so as they systematically thin the population. They've already started it with mass swine flu vaccinations. Lots of pregnant women are losing their babies after getting the vaccine and there's a host of other life-threatening side effects associated with it's use, including Guillain Barre Syndrome. This coupled with heavy carbon taxes which will have life-changing effects on poor people and will lead to a situation where only rich people will be able to travel, use technology etc. in the near future.

_________________
Solipsism
Ambidextrous Records
Solipsism Twitter
Solipsism Facebook
Solipsism Spotify

I'm starting to believe that nuclear energy is a feasible alternative to fossil fuel energy. The technology has come a long way since the days of meltdowns and there are now processes that can get energy from what was previously waste, thereby reducing the amount of existing waste, and any new waste produced would be many times less toxic than it used to be. There are several countries already going full steam ahead building nuclear reactors and as the number of reactors in the world increases the number of accidents has not. I would still like to investigate it further before I get behind it but when I started looking into it I have to admit I was pleasantly surprised.

_________________
The way I see it Barry, this should be a very dynamite show.

I retract my earlier statement utterly, the most amazing thing has occurred because of the global climate conference. Prostitutes will actually be giving it away for free, apparently though prostitution is legal the government of Copenhagen had begun to put some degree of pressure on the prostitutes and the hotels for the summit, the prostitutes responded by declaring that anyone with a pass to the conference could get free local hot action.
Serious respect to some real feminists that won't let the government tell them what they can or can't do with their bodies.

_________________
"Whose foot is to be the measure to which ours are all to be cut or stretched? Is a priest to be our inquisitor, or shall a layman, simple as ourselves, set up his reason as the rule for what we are to read and what we must believe?" T.J.

All GREAT answers !!

Thanks !!

I agree with most of the points you guys have said , especially that we, as humans , have NOT done the damage that some of these so - called scientist have claimed.

I see it rather as a form of BRUTE FORCE CYBERNECTICS .. Create A Need , and Fill It !

I see this not as an envirormental problem , but as an ecconmical solution.

Hmmm , how can we generate a substainable ecconomic engine ??

Well , let's CREATE a natural disaster and then employ people to fix it ! THAT's the answer.


If you went to college for climatology , oceanography or any other enviromental science , and there were no jobs after you graduated , wouldn't you jump on this bandwagon , EVEN if the facts are wrong ??

Sure you would .... you and your family like to eat too , right ?

The irony is that if a super volcano , like Yellowstone Park here in the US , went off , we wouldn't have to worry about global change any longer.

Just my opinion.

apparently yellowstone park is long overdue another massive blowout too.

_________________
Solipsism
Ambidextrous Records
Solipsism Twitter
Solipsism Facebook
Solipsism Spotify

they should run a cable up to space and power the earth from the space electricty that's just floating about. I seen a documentarty last night that said the sun isn't actually a nuclear furnace, but a giant, everlasting lightbulb that's powered from charged particles in empty space. it made a lot of sense

_________________
Solipsism
Ambidextrous Records
Solipsism Twitter
Solipsism Facebook
Solipsism Spotify

I think that is a valid point about job creation and hyping a crisis for the benefit of a new crop of graduates with no hope of employment in the field for which they have been trained. It has happened before in the legal system. A rapid increase in the number of lawyers in the 80's provided the momentum for the criminalization of many things previously considered personal rights. Also, this then lead to the privatization of the prison system, which has become a rather vicious circle.

I also agree that nuclear might be the best solution, now to just convince our leaders that our environment is more important than their terrorist propaganda about certain regimes and proliferation. Oh yeah and convince the liberals that they won't melt.

_________________
"Whose foot is to be the measure to which ours are all to be cut or stretched? Is a priest to be our inquisitor, or shall a layman, simple as ourselves, set up his reason as the rule for what we are to read and what we must believe?" T.J.

The biggest hypocrit of all of them .... with that fat Moore guy running a close 2nd.

I think we make a mistake if we allow the argument to be narrowed simply to the issue of greenhouse gases, and global warming, which is what appears to be happening again.
Obviously each of us has some impact on our surroundings, no one can deny that. If we acknowledge that every single human has an impact on his/her immediate surrounding then it becomes impossible to deny that as a whole we are impacting every place that humans are.
Again this gets into an interconnected ecosystem. Where does the smoke from our factories not pollute the air, where does the oil leakage of our vehicles and pesticides we use to keep our lawns not pollute the water, where does clear cutting a forest not decrease the number of trees to filter toxins from our air, where does the toxicity and pollution of the water not decrease the phytoplankton that produce the oxygen we need to breath?
By looking at these small things we can better understand.
If the focus is allowed to be shifted solely to the big picture it becomes much easier to deny the impact we have on the environment around us, not so if we occasionally focus on the smallest details.
Is the space that is not impacted by humans directly of a large enough scale to negate the effects we have on our collected surroundings?
I would argue it is not.

Mind you, I'm not arguing that we need to do everything that the environmentalist movement would advocate, simply stating that there is a problem, and the problem to some degree is us.
I do not for one second believe that the environmentalist movement has a monopoly on the answers, any more than I think corporations, or news departments they own, or the research papers they pay for are to be trusted to give us facts.

I think common sense would probably be the best way to go, but that is in short supply.
As an example Florida to a degree depends on tourism, many a tourist comes here with the intention of catching the big one. How then do we justify dumping millions of gallons of phosphorous contaminated water from a fertilizer factory into the middle of the Gulf of Mexico?
Beginning the very next year we have irregular red tides of longer duration and greater frequency, which are caused by a massive bloom and resultant die off of a particular kind of algae (algae might be fed by fertilizer I think ) what do we do?
Lie and deny of course (yeah I know, circumstantial evidence and all,) say the science isn't conclusive. But then who gives a shit in the long run... So what if we have less tourists because the beaches are littered with rotting fish that were poisoned by the dead algae? BTW the decaying algae also releases a chemical into the air that makes it very hard to breath for about 1/3 of the population. Of course this would never adversely affect our economy at all.
Suddenly I want to listen to "Moon Over Marin" by the Dead Kennedys.

_________________
"Whose foot is to be the measure to which ours are all to be cut or stretched? Is a priest to be our inquisitor, or shall a layman, simple as ourselves, set up his reason as the rule for what we are to read and what we must believe?" T.J.

That's the big qestion , isn't it ? Just how much do we , as humans , do harm to this planet , that's been around a LOT longer than we have.

Should we kill all the methane spewing bovines ? How about those marshes , dry ' em up ?

It's funny that emmisions in the USA have dwindled in the past ten years , WITHOUT signing the Kyoto treaty.

Do we really need a world organization to make us do the right thing ? Do richer countries have to pay those under developed countries in this battle ??

Just how big is this battle anyway ??

Just big enough to fill some politicians wallet

That isn't the question at all. We do no harm to the planet. We are irrelevant and unnecessary to the planet. We do harm to ourselves and our ability to survive.

In an attempt to answer your other questions: We will not kill the cattle, rich people like to eat beef. We will only drain marshes if the land is deemed commercially viable for condominium development. I do not believe there is any battle, as I said nothing will change. The idea of a world organization to enforce some meaningless laws has more to do with regulating our daily lives for a more clean and efficient period of suffering of those people who are without worth to the power structure as the system breaks down. There will be no money paid to underdeveloped countries, those people will be the first to succumb to disease and starvation. But an orderly end is required, so that people with power and money can maintain their standard of living while we all rot.

Just one amusing scenario that I can imagine. Not saying it will be just like that, but it could potentially go that way.

_________________
"Whose foot is to be the measure to which ours are all to be cut or stretched? Is a priest to be our inquisitor, or shall a layman, simple as ourselves, set up his reason as the rule for what we are to read and what we must believe?" T.J.

Now I'm really confused.

Michael Moore and Al Bore have both told me that I , and the rest of the population , are destoying the earth with our lifestyles that use up the planets natural resources.

Along with that , because of our spewing of toxic emmissions and cutting down of trees , our polar ice caps are going to melt and drown us all .

Somebody PLEASE .... tells us the REAL story !

Damn , guess i gotta get in my gas guzzling 4WD , trudge across the tunda burning fossil fuels and find out for myself.

That is another thing that really pisses me off about the global warming movement. Does anyone else remember before it took over all the environmentalists, and there used to be talk of REAL pollutants? Whatever happened to trying to cut toxic waste dumping, getting all these damaging chemicals out of our food, really examine the dangers of various pesticide, herbicide and fungicide run off. What about GMO foods? There was significant evidence that the corn with the pesticide grown into it could have been responsible for the disapearing bees as they seemed to be disappearing in all the areas where they grew that specific strain of corn. No, all the big environmental groups have been coopted to talk about one of the basic building blocks of life on this planet as a pollutant. Drives a man mad.....WITH DESIRE!!! Not really, but I figured we needed a Zappa connection somewhere in here!

_________________
For my clinically insane music
http://routenote.com/album/FOWL
http://www.myspace.com/fowlmusic
http://www.last.fm/music/fowl
http://www.deezer.com/en/#music/fowl
Your mental health requires buying my cd

Here,Here, well said I agree.

_________________
"I'm interested in the capitalistic way of life, and the reason I like it better than anything else I've seen so far is because competition produces results."

Do you have figures?

off the top of my head no but it is statistically significant.

http://organichealthadviser.com/archive ... do-not-mix

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... -Toll.aspx

_________________
Solipsism
Ambidextrous Records
Solipsism Twitter
Solipsism Facebook
Solipsism Spotify

In the official insert for the GlaxxoSmithKline adjuvanted vaccine given out in Canada they state that in studies on rats, adjuvanted H5N1 vaccines resulted in high levels of miscarriages, birth deformities, and retardation. Even more interestingly in relation to CS's point that this might all be about lowering the global population (for more info on that subject see THING FISH!!!!!!! ) the studies also showed the the babies had very narroy urethra, which would lead to lower fertility rates down the line. I detail all that in my article on the H1N1 vaccine in canada, with a link to the official insert.

_________________
For my clinically insane music
http://routenote.com/album/FOWL
http://www.myspace.com/fowlmusic
http://www.last.fm/music/fowl
http://www.deezer.com/en/#music/fowl
Your mental health requires buying my cd

It is a bit off topic, but it bears mentioning one other factor that will most likely play a role in the future. For several years now seed companies, you know the corporations that supply seeds to farmers, well they realized they had a small money making problem. See farmers are smart people and they know how to plant things in such a way as to grow enough for the food supply, and also a separate section of field is used to plant crops for the purpose of having next seasons seeds. Now as a multinational corporation that sells seeds this doesn't make for high enough profits, so several years ago the seed companies began engineering sterile seeds, and even more amusingly they managed to engineer them in such a way that they can pass that trait to the next generation. What does this mean? Answer: If within a certain geographical space cross pollination occurs with the engineered seeds, the next generation from that cross will be sterile, thus enabling the seed corporation to sell more seed. This means that what people refer to as heirloom cultivars, those that have the best flavor, produce the highest yield, etc. will become lost if cross pollination occurs. So it is not unreasonable to predict a continued trend along this line of thinking for the purpose of securing profit which will result in a collapse of the viable seed supply of old non engineered (real) seeds. If anything happens, lets say a new strain of plant virus attacks the plants that are owned and copyrighted by the multinational seed corporation (these plants are capable of producing viable genetically sterile seeds) then the world food supply collapses. Science is wonderful when used for the search for truth, in the hands of greedy corporations however it seems a touch how shall I say this??? Fucked.

_________________
"Whose foot is to be the measure to which ours are all to be cut or stretched? Is a priest to be our inquisitor, or shall a layman, simple as ourselves, set up his reason as the rule for what we are to read and what we must believe?" T.J.

I know OOTU. It's no surprise governments around the world have massive storage facilities full of heirloom seeds. The terminator seed strains are incredibly disturbing. Couple that with the practice of successfully suing farmer's who DON'T buy their seeds, whose crops have been pollinated by neighbouring farms with GMO product for illegally using their patents and you have a nightmare world. No joke.

_________________
For my clinically insane music
http://routenote.com/album/FOWL
http://www.myspace.com/fowlmusic
http://www.last.fm/music/fowl
http://www.deezer.com/en/#music/fowl
Your mental health requires buying my cd

they're doing the same with weed and trying to force everyone to buy feminized seeds. Fewer and fewer weed companies are offering normal seeds now.

_________________
Solipsism
Ambidextrous Records
Solipsism Twitter
Solipsism Facebook
Solipsism Spotify

Gay weed!
Considering you are from the UK, I thought this study was interesting, thought you'd benefit from reading it maybe!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healt ... sease.html

_________________
For my clinically insane music
http://routenote.com/album/FOWL
http://www.myspace.com/fowlmusic
http://www.last.fm/music/fowl
http://www.deezer.com/en/#music/fowl
Your mental health requires buying my cd