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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:27 am 
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What about
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(which was released in 1969)?

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A wann et päift, da fiert den Zuch!


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:08 am 
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Vietato l'Ingresso wrote:
I don't think any style can be attributed to just one person.

Ronny's Noomies seems to think that the music has to be very electrified and heavy sounding to qualify to the term of jazz-rock. I think it only peaked like that - and that Mahavishnu Orchestra is a special case with a style of their own that had a tremendous influence for a few years.

Jazz-rock died from artistry.

Well, not quite. I think there's a big difference between jazz guys dabbling with rock, or vice-versa, and bands that jumped in with both feet and fully embraced the combination of jazz and rock. The guys who joined the energy of rock with the chops of jazz are the ones I think really set jazz/rock up as a new category.

In any case, I've always felt that jazz/rock was really just a different kind of rock. It's jazz musicians playing sophisticated rock, but not playing jazz.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:16 am 
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James Robertson Justice

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next question.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:08 am 
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calvin2hikers wrote:


Funny stuff. the one Osmond playing the tele looks frighteningly like a young Jimmy Page at one point in that clip!


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:12 am 
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Vietato l'Ingresso wrote:
I don't think any style can be attributed to just one person.

There's always inputs from various sources when a new style emerges, and then some has more impact than others.

I would say that there's rock influence in the hardbop of the middle sixties, like Cannonball Adderley (with Joe Zawinul), but you could argue that it's more like gospel than rock. But then gospel is a main influence in rock.

Ronny's Noomies seems to think that the music has to be very electrified and heavy sounding to qualify to the term of jazz-rock. I think it only peaked like that - and that Mahavishnu Orchestra is a special case with a style of their own that had a tremendous influence for a few years.

Jazz-rock died from artistry.


Good points. I believe Miles Davis and Zawinul were both inspired by Sly and the Family Stone. Miles in particular wanted a taste of the "rock star" lifestyle because Sly and Jimi were gettin' all the pussy.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:24 pm 
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It was invented by Satan to punish musicians who play billions of notes that have no soul...


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:15 pm 
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SwaggartDecisions wrote:
It was invented by Satan to punish musicians who play billions of notes that have no soul...

Are you saying players like Jean Luc Ponty, Miles Davis, Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock, George Duke, Bill Connors, Allan Holdsworth, et al., play notes without soul? Wow. That's a pretty big statement.

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Last edited by Ronny's Noomies on Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: who invented jazz rock
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:15 am 
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WOW, some great posts, but jazz rock was not "invented", like all music it evolved, and as for notes with no soul save that for stuff like korn and the like, actually greg Errico Sly Sones drummer played with Weather report around 1973,check out wolfgangs vault and you can hear a concert with him playing, how much soul do ya want? And yea George benson mite have a little jazz rock soul, brand new jazz rock would be News from Mars GREAT CD

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:48 pm 
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I believe Larry Coryell is also credited for developing Fusion
and the band Nucleus was very jazz/rock in 1970.
Also, Miles recorded "Circle in the Round" in 1967 and it
really prefigures the fusion he would later get to.

Don't forget that "King Kong" was being played by the Mothers in 1967!
That's pretty jazz/rock!! (albeit 'avant-garde')
Also the ever enigmatic Sun Ra was doing almost everything before almost everyone.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:16 pm 
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What about Uncle Meat?

I have never heard any woman who have claimed to have slept with Hendrix. I'm sure he got lots of pussy though.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:55 pm 
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SwaggartDecisions wrote:
It was invented by Satan to punish musicians who play billions of notes that have no soul...


it was invented by NOTES to punish .. satan ,
who had too many musicians with billions of souls..

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Now now, fellas....I was 90% joking (I love Holdsworth, Ponty, Duke, et al), but we all know examples of the other 10% I was talkin' about...


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:51 am 
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My wife new a gal in hawaii who claimed to be the original "little wing".

You talkin bout dimeola? Well somebody had to do it. the ones that i find obnoxious are vai, yngwie, and those classical/rock shred dudes. i think they are technically amazing but i just can't stand the metal tone and the relentless shred mentality. I would call them prog/rock. No offense to fans of these guys and style. i just don't dig it. it has less dynamics to me. Most of the jazz/rock cats were tasteful improvisers IMHO. there's nothing wrong with alot of well placed notes. if vai does it for you that's cool. Steve Morse I can relate a little more but not that much. certainly a genius. I find satriani a bit on the repetitious side although he's an awesome player i admit. he pushes the energy of the grooves and takes it way over the top. i just think these guys can get stuck in there modes and techniques. Also sometimes they seem somewhat overly arranged.

I just find the tone and scope abrasive for some reason. now the guy in brand x that's more tolerable due to what he plays .

I just find the earlier jazz/rock style more sophisticated in it's harmonic complexity and listenability. I would cite mclaughlin and coryell as the originators and pioneers of jazz rock.

i would like to hear some keneally if someone can suggest something that is his best stuff i'd like to give him a listen. right now one the the more interesting and exciting new players for me is alex machachek.

Disclaimer: All my opinions above should not to be taken as an offense and an affront against your guitar gods. to each his own. free country
thank you peace and good playing and listening to you

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:36 am 
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Why not listen to "Nonkertompf". That's Keneally solo album where Mike plays all the instruments by himself. Less focus on shreditude and more on the eclectic and layered arrangements.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:01 pm 
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By the time Miles Davis released Bitches Brew, Frank had already released Freak Out, Absolutley Free, Lumpy Gravy, Uncle Meat and Hot Rats.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:06 am 
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How about Don Ellis?

I think his bigband experiments with odd meters, atonality, electronics (Don Ellis was doing the trumpet with electronics thing already in 1967, that's three years before Miles Davis thought of adding wah wah pedal to his horn), ethnic music and rock elements pretty much presaged Zappa's own Grand Wazoo stuff.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:28 pm 
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I say Miles deserves the title on who came up with fusion.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:36 pm 
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Louis Jordan

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His stuff was pretty much rockin'....and jazzy too

'Saturday Night Fish Fry' etc

some call it R&B...but he was really a jazzman

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:51 pm 
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massagio wrote:
20 Small Cigars is the closest zappa came to pure jazz.


you may be right, and I'm new arond here and don't want to start a fight but that statement is indicative of what is wrong with Music Labels.

And thank god Frank didn't write from labels.

Maybe you would like to explain why 20 small cigars is close to pure jazz but King Kong, or Ian Underwood whipping it out isn't?

I love this discussion and I don't want to end it, but I just remembered that the post started with a flawed if well intentioned question.

massagio, you asked
Quote:
who invented Jazz/Rock Fusion?? Was it FZ or M. Davis or..............?? Please give me an answer if you know. Then i dont need to read so much!


when I think you might do better to ask, What influences did both Miles Davis and Frank Zappa have on Jazz Fusion?

when I heard Frank in the 70's I thought he was fusing together a number of different musical styles, mainly blues, doo-wop, acid-rock, with genorous helpings of avant garde jazz, classical,

and when did he start, with Freak Out.

Frank was Fusion before Fusion was cool...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:47 pm 
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The universe invented Jazz-Rock-Fusion


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mutronboy wrote:
Louis Jordan


Yeah, Louis was definitely on the cutting edge of rock-n-roll before it had an official name. The energy in his music is definitely rockin' AND it swings.

Jazz didn't just magically appear in rock in the early 70's, it was one of rocks fundamental building blocks from the very beginning. Rockabilly was loaded with jazz influence, especially swing and bop. Here's an example of Gene Vincent who unfortunately died at a young age.

Image

This was recorded in 1956. This stuff was way more tricky to play than the plodding blues based stuff that ended up dominating rock later on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ2TVztibTQ

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:23 am 
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Don't forget chicago, BS&T ,Cold Blood,Tower of Power, Electricflag, FZ, Gram Bond, Traffic,& many more in the 60's

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:55 pm 
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What's all the discussion? "Invocation and Ritual Dance Of The Young Pumpkin" is clearly the first jazz-rock song on record.

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Gail

FC


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 Post subject: jazz/rock
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:43 pm 
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If the question is "jazz/rock" fusion
then I would have to agree with "greasy" and say the stuff on
"Absolutely Free" (Innvocation ...)
and I'd add much of Uncle Meat.

This stuff is the mid-late sixties. Miles "Circle In The Round" (1967)
was tame but the germ of it was there too.

As for "fusing" styles (jazz/classical) Stravinsky's "Ebony Concerto"
was probably the first in that respect.


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