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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:22 pm 
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FeralCats wrote:
feetlightup wrote:
FeralCats wrote:
The "show me your thumb if you're really dumb" line is sarcastic.


Slight tangent here.... what does the "thumb" have to do with anything, other than rhyming with "dumb"? Just curious - I've always wondered what that meant.


If you work in a Gas Station, a requirement used to be (I have no idea about now, but I doubt it) that you'd do some work with oil. Thus, you're thumbprint would be grimy and black...immediatley recognizable.


At last, I see clearly... thank you Feral.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:56 pm 
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Aybe Sea wrote:
I also think that the opening line of "Wind Up Working In the Gas Station" became a sort of a catch-all phrase for anyone looking for an excuse to behave like an asshole and the attacks on those who work at the gas station or fail to insure their future even with good university diploma is just insensitive.

AndrewR wrote:
"this here song might offend you some, if it does it's because you're dumb"
That made me lol, Frank Zappa (according to that song) would think you are dumb.

Aybe Sea wrote:
If you think i'm dumb or whatever, then take this into account: what makes you think this kind of a verse makes it possible for you to evade taking responsibility for your own words and actions? If you say: "Ah if I piss a buncha people off with what I say then this means they're idiots who have failed to understand me" then my response is: "how very convenient of you".


so, zappa didn't take responsibility for his own words and actions?
is that what you're saying?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:15 pm 
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FeralCats wrote:
[In "Wind Up Working In the Gas Station"] ... As stated before, I really don't think Zappa was making fun of people working at gas stations ... I actually think it's sort of Zappa looking back on his own childhood- "That's the way it is where I come from". Apparently, more than a few of his friends worked on cars and other things. And Zappa was obviously familiar with cars of at least that period. I wouldn't be surprised if that criticism hit him apparently.

Indeed, let's not forget the gas station references in Lumpy Gravy.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:17 am 
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Lumpy Gravy wrote:
Aybe Sea wrote:
I also think that the opening line of "Wind Up Working In the Gas Station" became a sort of a catch-all phrase for anyone looking for an excuse to behave like an asshole and the attacks on those who work at the gas station or fail to insure their future even with good university diploma is just insensitive.

AndrewR wrote:
"this here song might offend you some, if it does it's because you're dumb"
That made me lol, Frank Zappa (according to that song) would think you are dumb.

Aybe Sea wrote:
If you think i'm dumb or whatever, then take this into account: what makes you think this kind of a verse makes it possible for you to evade taking responsibility for your own words and actions? If you say: "Ah if I piss a buncha people off with what I say then this means they're idiots who have failed to understand me" then my response is: "how very convenient of you".


so, zappa didn't take responsibility for his own words and actions?
is that what you're saying?


Never said that. However, there's an exceedingly thin line between satire against the right, deserving targets and the gratuitous mockery of absolutely everything and i don't think the distinction is clear for everyone. Regardless if we're dealing with those who feel attacked by Zappa like feminists (who think that FZ was then a sexist prick) or those who are the ones that are sexist themselves (who get the wrong idea by listening to "Dinah Moe Humm" and thus they seemingly have found a "role model" to validate their skewed views on women).

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:37 am 
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some people are so fucking dumb, mistaking the message for the messenger. isn't it blindingly obvious ? guess not.

i bet zappa bashed men more than women in his songs, anyway.



anyway, what about excentrifigal forz, come on don't be shy ..


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:44 pm 
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Aybe Sea wrote:
there's an exceedingly thin line between satire against the right, deserving targets and the gratuitous mockery of absolutely everything and i don't think the distinction is clear for everyone.


the right, deserving targets? who are you to say what the right and deserving targets are?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:10 pm 
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Aybe Sea wrote:
... get the wrong idea by listening to "Dinah Moe Humm" and thus they seemingly have found a "role model" to validate their skewed views on women).

In what way is Dinah-Moe Humm a comment on all women? It's a very particular story, it's not meant to be taken as a generalisation on all women. Anybody who would use a song like Dinah-Moe Humm as an excuse for sexist views is a fucking idiot and you can't hold Zappa accountable for fucking idiots.

One of the most notable feminists, Germaine Greer was a friend and a fan of Frank Zappa.

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Last edited by polydigm on Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:25 pm 
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Raoul Duke wrote:
Aybe Sea wrote:
there's an exceedingly thin line between satire against the right, deserving targets and the gratuitous mockery of absolutely everything and i don't think the distinction is clear for everyone.


the right, deserving targets? who are you to say what the right and deserving targets are?


So your answer is to make fun of absolutely anyone or anything you dislike? Forget making a valid social statement and instead satisfy your puerile urges, is that what your idea is?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:28 pm 
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To everyone:

You may not like what I say, but you have to take it into consideration that all I'm doing is playing the devil's advocate.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:56 pm 
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timm0 wrote:
some people are so fucking dumb, mistaking the message for the messenger. isn't it blindingly obvious ? guess not.

i bet zappa bashed men more than women in his songs, anyway.



anyway, what about excentrifigal forz, come on don't be shy ..
ho well
.
this looks good though downloads mmm

http://excentrifugalforz.blogspot.com/

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:28 pm 
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Aybe Sea wrote:
Raoul Duke wrote:
Aybe Sea wrote:
there's an exceedingly thin line between satire against the right, deserving targets and the gratuitous mockery of absolutely everything and i don't think the distinction is clear for everyone.


the right, deserving targets? who are you to say what the right and deserving targets are?


So your answer is to make fun of absolutely anyone or anything you dislike? Forget making a valid social statement and instead satisfy your puerile urges, is that what your idea is?


There's really only a few things Zappa ever really made fun of, it's just that they appear in various guises.

1. The settling for comfortable 'truths' rather than thinking for yourself, which can only result in you exposing your week point ('Oh No', 'The Meek/Heavenly Bank Account', 'Dumb All Over', (All of YAWYI is applicable, here), 'We're Turning Again', 'Greggary Peccary', etc.)

2. The exposition of any fad of any kind for it's ridiculousness. Contrary to popular belief, I don't think Zappa actually HATED everything- he could just see how it had a humour in it. Which is why he actually frequently makes fun of himself and things he was apart of- ('Greggary Peccary', 'Dancin' Fool', 'Mudd Club', 'I'm The Slime', The entirety of Thing-Fish, 'You Didn't Try To Call Me', 'Uncle Bernie's Farm', etc.)

3. A lyric defending a certain type of person simply by imitating the attacker and revealing what they say to be ridiculous. These probably make up Zappa's worse, most misunderstood lyrics. Simply because they overlying irony is usually very very subtle, and his English is too normal for people to want to spend time probing through it for all the little hints. ("Bobby Brown', 'He's So Gay', 'Dancin' Fool' (Let's not forget, the guy who's the lead singer there is sort of admirable), 'Wind Up Workin' In A Gas Station', 'Titties and Beer', etc.)

I could elaborate farther, but I'm not good with long things. The hardest thing to defend is those of the third type, so I'll give some examples of how he's in fact, defending-

Titties And Beer- Regardless of the fact that the man and the devil are arguing over the lady, and are both being idiots, the lady just says 'Screw you!' and walks off.

Dancin' Fool- Dancer guy comes in, dressed up and ready to get goin' on the dance floor. He's aware he's not very good at it, but he still goes out front and dances. Even if it's not in a very original context, he doesn't really care how other people feel about him, which is of course a trait Zappa advocates. (He even aligns himself with Dancin' Fool- 'One of my legs' is shorter than the other')

etc.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:55 pm 
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Aybe Sea wrote:
If you think i'm dumb or whatever, then take this into account: what makes you think this kind of a verse makes it possible for you to evade taking responsibility for your own words and actions? If you say: "Ah if I piss a buncha people off with what I say then this means they're idiots who have failed to understand me" then my response is: "how very convenient of you".

Lumpy Gravy wrote:
so, zappa didn't take responsibility for his own words and actions?
is that what you're saying?

Aybe Sea wrote:
Never said that. However, there's an exceedingly thin line between satire against the right, deserving targets and the gratuitous mockery of absolutely everything and i don't think the distinction is clear for everyone. Regardless if we're dealing with those who feel attacked by Zappa like feminists (who think that FZ was then a sexist prick) or those who are the ones that are sexist themselves (who get the wrong idea by listening to "Dinah Moe Humm" and thus they seemingly have found a "role model" to validate their skewed views on women).


well, you're always going to have idiots who misunderstand a song lyric (or a movie etc.), and use it to validate their own misconceptions of society. but, you can't really hold the author responsible for that, can you?
_____________________________________________

Aybe Sea wrote:
there's an exceedingly thin line between satire against the right, deserving targets and the gratuitous mockery of absolutely everything and i don't think the distinction is clear for everyone.

Raoul Duke wrote:
the right, deserving targets? who are you to say what the right and deserving targets are?

Aybe Sea wrote:
So your answer is to make fun of absolutely anyone or anything you dislike? Forget making a valid social statement and instead satisfy your puerile urges, is that what your idea is?


if I may answer for raoul duke; is that what you think frank zappa did? forgot to make a valid social statement for his need to satisfy his puerile urges?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:58 pm 
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Aybe Sea wrote:
To everyone:

You may not like what I say, but you have to take it into consideration that all I'm doing is playing the devil's advocate.
There we all have it! "Aybe Sea" finally let us in on the fact that he's only acting as an agent provocateur prodding us enraged cattle along to keep us from getting too damned fucking docile and lazy.

How about that! 8)

--Bat :roll:

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:28 pm 
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Lumpy Gravy wrote:
well, you're always going to have idiots who misunderstand a song lyric (or a movie etc.), and use it to validate their own misconceptions of society. but, you can't really hold the author responsible for that, can you?

Next you'll be trying to tell me The Beatle's weren't responsible for the Tate murders!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:02 pm 
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Lumpy Gravy wrote:
well, you're always going to have idiots who misunderstand a song lyric (or a movie etc.), and use it to validate their own misconceptions of society. but, you can't really hold the author responsible for that, can you?

just plain doug wrote:
Next you'll be trying to tell me The Beatle's weren't responsible for the Tate murders!


helter skelter :twisted:

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:33 am 
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Lumpy Gravy wrote:
if I may answer for raoul duke; is that what you think frank zappa did? forgot to make a valid social statement for his need to satisfy his puerile urges?


I was more concerned about how Raoul didn't think it was important to rationally discern between the targets that really needed ridicule and the targets the attacking of which is merely amusing for those who like cheap entertainment, but ultimately comes off a bit crass, tbqh. I'm not saying songs like "Dinah", "Dirty Love", "I've Been In You" or others are immoral or bigoted, because i definitely ain't no prude at all, but they're just a little too heavily leaning on the tasteless and crass side of the fence.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:40 am 
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Lumpy Gravy wrote:
if I may answer for raoul duke; is that what you think frank zappa did? forgot to make a valid social statement for his need to satisfy his puerile urges?


is this directed at me?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:24 pm 
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Lumpy Gravy wrote:
if I may answer for raoul duke; is that what you think frank zappa did? forgot to make a valid social statement for his need to satisfy his puerile urges?

Raoul Duke wrote:
is this directed at me?

no, no, no. it was directed towards aybe sea. see his answer above.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:30 pm 
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Aybe Sea wrote:
I was more concerned about how Raoul didn't think it was important to rationally discern between the targets that really needed ridicule and the targets the attacking of which is merely amusing for those who like cheap entertainment, but ultimately comes off a bit crass, tbqh. I'm not saying songs like "Dinah", "Dirty Love", "I've Been In You" or others are immoral or bigoted, because i definitely ain't no prude at all, but they're just a little too heavily leaning on the tasteless and crass side of the fence.


maybe you're not a prude, but you definitely show signs of political correctness...

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:41 pm 
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FeralCats wrote:
Aybe Sea wrote:
Raoul Duke wrote:
Aybe Sea wrote:
there's an exceedingly thin line between satire against the right, deserving targets and the gratuitous mockery of absolutely everything and i don't think the distinction is clear for everyone.


the right, deserving targets? who are you to say what the right and deserving targets are?


So your answer is to make fun of absolutely anyone or anything you dislike? Forget making a valid social statement and instead satisfy your puerile urges, is that what your idea is?


There's really only a few things Zappa ever really made fun of, it's just that they appear in various guises.

1. The settling for comfortable 'truths' rather than thinking for yourself, which can only result in you exposing your week point ('Oh No', 'The Meek/Heavenly Bank Account', 'Dumb All Over', (All of YAWYI is applicable, here), 'We're Turning Again', 'Greggary Peccary', etc.)

2. The exposition of any fad of any kind for it's ridiculousness. Contrary to popular belief, I don't think Zappa actually HATED everything- he could just see how it had a humour in it. Which is why he actually frequently makes fun of himself and things he was apart of- ('Greggary Peccary', 'Dancin' Fool', 'Mudd Club', 'I'm The Slime', The entirety of Thing-Fish, 'You Didn't Try To Call Me', 'Uncle Bernie's Farm', etc.)

3. A lyric defending a certain type of person simply by imitating the attacker and revealing what they say to be ridiculous. These probably make up Zappa's worse, most misunderstood lyrics. Simply because they overlying irony is usually very very subtle, and his English is too normal for people to want to spend time probing through it for all the little hints. ("Bobby Brown', 'He's So Gay', 'Dancin' Fool' (Let's not forget, the guy who's the lead singer there is sort of admirable), 'Wind Up Workin' In A Gas Station', 'Titties and Beer', etc.)

I could elaborate farther, but I'm not good with long things. The hardest thing to defend is those of the third type, so I'll give some examples of how he's in fact, defending-

Titties And Beer- Regardless of the fact that the man and the devil are arguing over the lady, and are both being idiots, the lady just says 'Screw you!' and walks off.

Dancin' Fool- Dancer guy comes in, dressed up and ready to get goin' on the dance floor. He's aware he's not very good at it, but he still goes out front and dances. Even if it's not in a very original context, he doesn't really care how other people feel about him, which is of course a trait Zappa advocates. (He even aligns himself with Dancin' Fool- 'One of my legs' is shorter than the other')

etc.


4. faggots


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:12 am 
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acroyear wrote:

4. faggots


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:13 am 
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Lumpy Gravy wrote:
Aybe Sea wrote:
I was more concerned about how Raoul didn't think it was important to rationally discern between the targets that really needed ridicule and the targets the attacking of which is merely amusing for those who like cheap entertainment, but ultimately comes off a bit crass, tbqh. I'm not saying songs like "Dinah", "Dirty Love", "I've Been In You" or others are immoral or bigoted, because i definitely ain't no prude at all, but they're just a little too heavily leaning on the tasteless and crass side of the fence.


maybe you're not a prude, but you definitely show signs of political correctness...


Say it isn't so, Aybe Sea! :shock:

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:59 pm 
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Someone upthread probably already said this more eloquently, but what the fuck...

The man had a interesting life. He knew some weird fucking people (and he probably fucked some weird people, too.) and as FZ said (and I'm paraphrasing here...), in this day and age, you need lyrics over the top of your music or people get bored. Write what'cha know. He just censored himself less than others.

There was a thread about how FZ often contradicted himself in interviews, he said what he felt at the moment, regardless of what he had said before. I think he did the same with his lyrics.


Also, not to derail, but whoever said that "Zoot Alures" was a cold sounding album was full of shit.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:35 pm 
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Quote:
There was a thread about how FZ often contradicted himself in interviews, he said what he felt at the moment, regardless of what he had said before. I think he did the same with his lyrics.


Not just in interviews, for compare

1. Drop out of school and go to the library to learn...
2. I don't like reading, it makes me sleepy...

:wink: :wink: :) :)


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:41 pm 
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Quote:
Not just in interviews, for compare

1. Drop out of school and go to the library to learn...
2. I don't like reading, it makes me sleepy...


I think that part of what he said was, a lot of the time, part of the whole 'zappa persona' thing.... But I think that he actually grew to believing in a lot of that stuff.

By this I mean his 'one liners' and not the more elaborated things he said.

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