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 Post subject: Did Pink Floyd sell out?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:19 am 
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Inspired by the "bands who sold out" thread, I thought the case of Pink Floyd deserves a separate thread. Did PF sell out with DSOTM or not? and why?

I'd also pay attention to what Disco Boy said.

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The Dark Side Of The Moon was HUGELY innovative. On The Run utilized the relatively new VCS 3 synth along with extremely complex loops that hadn't been heard before. On The Great Gig In The Sky had Rick Wright combining major sevenths with minor sevenths and flat sevenths without being too indulgent and too fusion-oriented, coupled with Clare Torry's orgasmic vocal leads, which hadn't been done before. Money incorporated 7/8 time with a backwards tape loop of a cash register, etc.


I’d say King Crimson and Curved Air had already used VCS3 synthesizer and so had Floyd on their earlier records, on „Echoes“ off Meddle for instance. Soft Machine had some complex tape loop action on „Third“ album. As for Clare Torry, she was just a guest singer, among those soulful other female singers (a definite proof of the more radio friendly aspects of Floyd sound on that album, along the horribly hackneyed saxophone). Had they used a wonderfully bizarre untrained voice, like Robert Wyatt, who was a true scat singing innovator (and a friend of Nick Mason too), now that would’ve been weird! Using those normal soulful guest singers and that cheesy sax are blatant proofs of commercializing the Floyd sound. Odd time signatures were commonplace in progressive rock.

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Wish You Were Here included Shine On You Crazy Diamond in all it's nine parts and was around 25 minutes long. Have A Cigar & Welcome To The Machine lampooned the music industry with incredible wit.


Again, long songs were already done by other progressive acts. Crimson, Softs, Caravan, Yes, Can, Zappa (billy the mountain of course). Floyd simply reflected on the prog rock trademarks by adding a more sanitized twist on them. Oh and Waters might have hated the music industry and sing about money being the root of all evil, and yet this very same man had no problem with accepting huge paychecks for his own commercialized songs?

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Animals also included lengthy radio-unfriendly tunes, ala, Pigs (Three Different Ones), Sheep & Dogs.


Virtually no protests against that, as I rather like this album. They stripped away those horrible saxes and female choirs for that one, which was a good move. A momentary return to form, that’s for sure.

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The Wall, as a double album, was not an easy listen if you didn't understand the storyline and the history of the protagonist, Pink. And the album wasn't performed live more than around 30 times AND in only four markets (Dortmund, Germany, London, Long Island, NY & Los Angeles). The Floyd could've grossed many times the amount that they grossed with the amount of shows that they did play, had they played more than 30 or so shows AND the shows that they did play did not break even because of the expenses and logistics involved with the production of the short tour.


Still, The Wall is Pink Floyd at its more sanitized and cleaned up version. Any casual fan who likes this and Dark Side, can’t usually digest stuff like „Ummagumma“ and chances are he doesn’t know a damned thing about Syd Barrett! I’m not saying Disco Boy is casual, for it’s more likely he has heard all of Pink Floyd’s albums. Just pointing out that DSOTM and the Wall appeal to the lowest common denominator.

As for Roger Waters, he was becoming a virtual Grade A Asshole as the 70s draw to close. He dispensed with other bandmembers’ contributions, even going as far as dissing Wright and Mason as musicians. I’m not saying Mason is a great drummer, but belittling your bandmates and making them feel like shit for me is morally revolting! And that spitting in the face incident? He was clearly becoming too dominant and aggressively arrogant. And his lyrics? Pure pessimism and whining. Pathetic. Anyone can write pessimistic lyrics. It’s easy. Just think of something that makes you feel insecure and presto!


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:02 am 
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I guess it's (obviously) a matter of opinion as to whether the Floyd sold out but I will say I tend to lean in favor more towards everything pre-Dark Side which is more PINK FLOYD to my ears......but Dark Side, WYWH and Animals are great albums nonetheless. The Wall didn't really thrill me much at all though the concept is interesting and a few of the songs are great....and the Final Cut just left me cold. I didn't really regard those records as the Floyd I grew up with.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:08 am 
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Certainly after Roger Waters left for me. I think RW still refuses to become a sell-out.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:24 am 
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Life's too short to ponder about these things...

I don't know about the Floyd, but I remember an interview with Geddy Lee from Rush who said that, as hard as it might have been to fathom for fans who only like the epic length muso stuff, at one point they just got bored with writing 20 minute length progressive experimental epics, and they just wanted to write more catchy and to-the-point 3 minute songs.

Of course this can all be explained away as 'selling out', 'going commercial', blah.. blah.. and personally, I do like Rush's earlier stuff better, but people also mature, tastes change and interests change as well (hey, there IS some value in writing good catchy pop songs as opposed to 20 minute experimental skronk-fests).

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:10 am 
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SPACEBROTHER wrote:
Certainly after Roger Waters left for me. I think RW still refuses to become a sell-out.


Ditto, Im not a fan of post-Waters Floyd, and I agree, Waters will never be a sell out.
As Stude says, it aint about selling out anyway. Do you really think that any credible band digressing from something they produced originally, are to be classed as a "sell out". It is about progression and if they felt they wanted to go in that direction, who has the right to say they "sold out".
Floyd made some amazing albums, and no matter what anyone says, you can't take that away from them. If they were really sell outs, they'd have got together and done a Floyd reunion tour when they had the option after Live 8. Truth is, they continued with their own projects, and moved forward, instead of backwards, which is more than can be said for many bands out there.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:46 am 
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aspy_2nd_bunch wrote:
SPACEBROTHER wrote:
Certainly after Roger Waters left for me. I think RW still refuses to become a sell-out.


Ditto, Im not a fan of post-Waters Floyd, and I agree, Waters will never be a sell out.
As Stude says, it aint about selling out anyway. Do you really think that any credible band digressing from something they produced originally, are to be classed as a "sell out". It is about progression and if they felt they wanted to go in that direction, who has the right to say they "sold out".
Floyd made some amazing albums, and no matter what anyone says, you can't take that away from them. If they were really sell outs, they'd have got together and done a Floyd reunion tour when they had the option after Live 8. Truth is, they continued with their own projects, and moved forward, instead of backwards, which is more than can be said for many bands out there.


I imagine if they toured after Live 8, ticket prices would have broken every record and fans with dispensable incomes would have readily gobbled them up.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:31 am 
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I don't have an opinion either way, they are what they are, but I do want to add this info to the discussion. My brother and some friends saw Waters in Toronto last month and said he played all Pink Floyd songs (except for one new one about Bush.) Now hearing this upset me a bit. I really like solo Waters, so for him to not play any of those songs seems like a major sellout to me. Where those solo cd's that bad? Do you not like them, or are you just pandering to the masses. I would believe that would register as sellout. Also, he lip sang. That bugs me a lot too. You have the money. If your voice is gone, then just hire a good vocalist and let him take the songs to a different place.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:14 pm 
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In a sense, the very commercial success of Floyd was an innovation in itself. Aybe Sea correctly points out the prior innovations of the Canterbury crowd (Caravan, Softs, etc), but none of these groups ever managed to take such a progressive stance (i.e. music as art) and actually make it move millions of units. In doing this, they definitely set a precedent. So what if they moved to smooth production and saxes and choirs and guest musicians? It may sound somewhat trite today (mostly a consequence of overexposure, which should NOT reflect on the quality of the work), but at the time, it was truly innovative. Bottom line: the Floyd were Leaders, not Followers.

So no, I don't think they sold out with DSOTM - popularity should not be confused with lack of innovation. You could make an argument for Momentary Lapse of Reason, but that's another question. I DID, however, use to feel a little bitterness that more (some might say more worthy) groups like Caravan didn't achieve the same success. But I've gotten over that and put the Floyd's achievements in historical perspective. Sure, I like listening to Ummagumma more, but I can't help but admire the unprecedented achievement of left-field success that was DSOTM.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:45 pm 
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Pink Floyd start moving down hill for me as soon as Syd Barret leaves, but that's just my opinion.

I've never liked Dark Side very much. It was boring at best, and pretentious at worst (Man, I just used pretentious as an insult! Maybe I should be a rock critic). On The Run seemed boring as hell. The Great Gig In The Sky reminded me of glorified elevator songs. And Lyrically, the album purports itself to be much more than it actually is.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:15 pm 
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FeralCats wrote:
And Lyrically, the album purports itself to be much more than it actually is.


In your opinion, of course.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:21 pm 
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FOWL wrote:
I don't have an opinion either way, they are what they are, but I do want to add this info to the discussion. My brother and some friends saw Waters in Toronto last month and said he played all Pink Floyd songs (except for one new one about Bush.) Now hearing this upset me a bit. I really like solo Waters, so for him to not play any of those songs seems like a major sellout to me. Where those solo cd's that bad? Do you not like them, or are you just pandering to the masses. I would believe that would register as sellout. Also, he lip sang. That bugs me a lot too. You have the money. If your voice is gone, then just hire a good vocalist and let him take the songs to a different place.


I've seen Waters live, most recently in 2002. He gave an amazing performance, to a stadium filled to capacity with fans who could not get enough of him.
Did you see him at the Air Canada Centre in Toronto on Sept 20th by any chance? 8)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:40 pm 
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We all have our own opinion. Hell, I think The Final Cut is better than anything they did. And they Syd Barrett period sucked. It's hard to determine if somebody has sold out when you actually like something more than another.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:36 pm 
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calvin2hikers wrote:
We all have our own opinion. Hell, I think The Final Cut is better than anything they did. And they Syd Barrett period sucked. It's hard to determine if somebody has sold out when you actually like something more than another.


Cal, you are possibly the only person Ive come across who actually dislikes the Barrett period and likes The Final Cut....most people hate it. Good job old bean! 8)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:49 pm 
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Roger Waters IS Pink Floyd.

Everything after he left, is derivative and boring.

His current band puts the old Floyds to shame.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:03 pm 
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zombie1210 wrote:
Roger Waters IS Pink Floyd.

Everything after he left, is derivative and boring.

His current band puts the old Floyds to shame.


I agree totally....although Gilmour played a big part at one point. I can only think of two songs produced by post Waters Floyd and theyre both from Division Bell.....nothing else they released interested me really.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:44 pm 
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Aybe Sea wrote:
I’d say King Crimson and Curved Air had already used VCS3 synthesizer and so had Floyd on their earlier records, on „Echoes“ off Meddle for instance.


I never said they were the first to use the VCS 3. I basically said with the combination of that and the particular tape looping effects, made the track unique.

Aybe Sea wrote:
Soft Machine had some complex tape loop action on „Third“ album.


But not in the way Floyd utilized it on The Dark Side Of The Moon.


Aybe Sea wrote:
As for Clare Torry, she was just a guest singer, among those soulful other female singers (a definite proof of the more radio friendly aspects of Floyd sound on that album, along the horribly hackneyed saxophone). Had they used a wonderfully bizarre untrained voice, like Robert Wyatt, who was a true scat singing innovator (and a friend of Nick Mason too), now that would’ve been weird! Using those normal soulful guest singers and that cheesy sax are blatant proofs of commercializing the Floyd sound.


You have NO clue what you're talking about, do you? Are you kidding me?! Floyd weren't even sure that using Clare would be a good idea, since it was so different for them. But when she finished her take on The Great Gig In The Sky, they, especially Rick, were BLOWN AWAY. Not to mention, it wasn't a single and hence no (or very little) radio play until years later, since it's now one of the five largest selling albums ever.


Aybe Sea wrote:
Odd time signatures were commonplace in progressive rock.


Yes but not with a backwards tape loop constructed by Waters and his then wife in her garden using actual sounds and not necessarily artificial effects.


Aybe Sea wrote:
Again, long songs were already done by other progressive acts. Crimson, Softs, Caravan, Yes, Can, Zappa (billy the mountain of course). Floyd simply reflected on the prog rock trademarks by adding a more sanitized twist on them.


Prog-rock trademarks? Floyd began BEFORE Crimson and Yes. :roll: And writing songs that are 25 minutes long weren't radio-friendly (and still aren't), like you are saying they are. And apart from the acts you've listed above, only Yes had major commerical success by 1973.


Aybe Sea wrote:
Oh and Waters might have hated the music industry and sing about money being the root of all evil, and yet this very same man had no problem with accepting huge paychecks for his own commercialized songs?


LOL! Yeah, that's why Waters hasn't toured with the Floyd since 1981 and has turned down hundreds of millions of dollars to reform and tour under the name, Pink Floyd. :roll:

Aybe Sea wrote:
Still, The Wall is Pink Floyd at its more sanitized and cleaned up version. Any casual fan who likes this and Dark Side, can’t usually digest stuff like „Ummagumma“ and chances are he doesn’t know a damned thing about Syd Barrett!


So what? And I've been a fan of Floyd since '94 and I didn't really take to the Barrett era until last year...

Aybe Sea wrote:
I’m not saying Disco Boy is casual, for it’s more likely he has heard all of Pink Floyd’s albums.



You're god damn right I have.


Aybe Sea wrote:
Just pointing out that DSOTM and the Wall appeal to the lowest common denominator.


WTF?

Aybe Sea wrote:
As for Roger Waters, he was becoming a virtual Grade A Asshole as the 70s draw to close. He dispensed with other bandmembers’ contributions, even going as far as dissing Wright and Mason as musicians. I’m not saying Mason is a great drummer, but belittling your bandmates and making them feel like shit for me is morally revolting! And that spitting in the face incident? He was clearly becoming too dominant and aggressively arrogant.


Agreed. Wow, I didn't think you had it in ya...


Aybe Sea wrote:
And his lyrics? Pure pessimism and whining. Pathetic. Anyone can write pessimistic lyrics. It’s easy. Just think of something that makes you feel insecure and presto!


Are you saying anyone can write lyrics like Roger Waters? OMFG.

No offense but you need to rent or buy a DVD copy of Classic Albums: The Dark Side Of The Moon and FAST...

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Last edited by Disco Boy on Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:49 pm 
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zombie1210 wrote:
Roger Waters IS Pink Floyd.


*Sound of Disco Boy's head exploding*

Do yourself a favour and search the archives on this forum. We've talked plenty about that ridiculous statement and I have proven how wrong it is.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:53 pm 
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Respectfully, Sir...you are full of shit.

After Roger left, all the songs sound the same, no soul and bland.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:55 pm 
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zombie1210 wrote:
Respectfully, Sir...you are full of shit.

After Roger left, all the songs sound the same, no soul and bland.


Coming from someone who thinks "Roger Waters IS Pink Floyd", your above statement doesn't mean much...

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:02 pm 
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You seem to be unencumbered by the burden of intelligence.

But, I'll give it one last shot.

Have you seen Roger in concert?

If you have, and still think the way you do....see the first line in this post.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:26 pm 
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Disco Boy wrote:
zombie1210 wrote:
Roger Waters IS Pink Floyd.


plenty about that ridiculous statement and I have proven how wrong it is.


I think we're coming from the same place here disco boy, but I actually think that is a pretty valid statement. Waters and Barrett were the founding members of Floyd. Once Barrett left and Gilmour was drafted in, together they produced that amazing sound, but once Waters left, Floyd died imo. It was never the same. Sure, Gilmour, Mason and Wright carried on, but it just never grabbed me in the same way as when Waters was with them. That kinda proves that Waters was pretty much the main driving force there for that unique Floyd sound. Just my take on things. 8)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:31 pm 
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Aybe Sea wrote:
Still, The Wall is Pink Floyd at its more sanitized and cleaned up version. Any casual fan who likes this and Dark Side, can’t usually digest stuff like „Ummagumma“ and chances are he doesn’t know a damned thing about Syd Barrett! I’m not saying Disco Boy is casual, for it’s more likely he has heard all of Pink Floyd’s albums. Just pointing out that DSOTM and the Wall appeal to the lowest common denominator.


Who died and made you judge and jury on what Floyd fans can and can't digest? The first Floyd album I ever heard in it's entirety was "Ummagumma" when I was 14 years old, and it sure as shit didn't prevent me from loving DSOTM or The Wall for that matter, every bit as much.
What a fucking patronising statement.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:58 pm 
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aspy_2nd_bunch wrote:
I think we're coming from the same place here disco boy, but I actually think that is a pretty valid statement. Waters and Barrett were the founding members of Floyd. Once Barrett left and Gilmour was drafted in, together they produced that amazing sound, but once Waters left, Floyd died imo. It was never the same. Sure, Gilmour, Mason and Wright carried on, but it just never grabbed me in the same way as when Waters was with them. That kinda proves that Waters was pretty much the main driving force there for that unique Floyd sound. Just my take on things. 8)


1. Would Pink Floyd be the same without Gilmour's flawless guitar playing, tone, breathtaking vocals and songwriting efforts?
2. Did you know that MANY Pink Floyd album writing credits credited to Waters are NOT entirely correct or correct at all?:

~ on Wish You Were Here, it states in the liner notes that Waters wrote the song, well Gilmour wrote the main riff on acoustic guitar, as he stated in The Pink Floyd & Syd Barrett Story DVD.
~ Another Brick In Wall, Part II was co-written by Gilmour in the solo section chord progression and of course the solo accompanying it.
~ 70% of the music to Sheep was written by Gilmour.
~ Gilmour contributed greatly to the production of The Wall, along with Bob Ezrin, and even Michael Kamen. Waters, even though he's undeniably an excellent lyricist and collaborator, didn't know jack shit about production at this time - he knows more about it now however...
~ Gilmour played bass on several early tracks since Waters couldn't play the bass (and still can't) to save his life

Etc., etc., etc., etc.,

I don't know how many times now that I've gone over the above on this forum but I'm getting sick and tired of explaining this to Floyd fans that are not properly informed...

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:04 pm 
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zombie1210 wrote:
You seem to be unencumbered by the burden of intelligence.

But, I'll give it one last shot.

Have you seen Roger in concert?

If you have, and still think the way you do....see the first line in this post.


Alrighty then. I'll buy a below face ticket from scalpers for $20 whenever he schedules a Vancouver performance. And since Roger Waters now LIP-SYNCHS live, I'll be glad to laugh my fucking ass off during the show...

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