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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:36 am 
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I notice a severe decrease of public interest in the music of Frank Zappa over the recent years.

I've recently read an analysis which basically says something like this (my own words – the original is in German): "Frank Zappa's music is mostly music about music. …" (At this point it also says in German, hard for me to translate: "Zappa's Musik ist originell aber nicht originär"). "… He created his own universe. His music works well and succeeded inside of his universe but is rather meaningless outside. …" (Edit: For everyone who can read and understand German, this is the original source: http://www.roxikon.de/rock/rock-personen/frank-zappa/)

This might be shocking and leaving much room for discussion when a lifetime fan like myself has to admit: This is quite fitting and could be true. And I'm afraid: His universe was alive as long as he was alive. But when he died also his music died and has by now disappeared into insignificance for any new "scene" or generation including the music scene.

DZPZ's efforts don't really change this.

I hope someone gets what I'm trying to say – despite my rudimentary English.

Th.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:18 am 
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Thinman wrote:
...I hope someone gets what I'm trying to say – despite my rudimentary English.

Th.

Don't worry... the 'Monger won't.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:21 am 
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Thinman wrote:
I notice a severe decrease of public interest in the music of Frank Zappa over the recent years.

He created his own universe. His music works well and succeeded inside of his universe but is rather meaningless outside.

I don't know about Europe, but in America, Frank has always been a bit of a cult figure. He's never really had much notoriety within the mainstream.

Getting a little off topic here... I think a lot of the old 1960s icons have been slipping in popularity. In the 90s, it seems like everyone I knew in high school went through a huge Jimi Hendrix discovery, but I feel like I rarely ever hear young people talk about him anymore. Same with The Doors. Maybe the nostalgia cycle has just shifted, and high school kids these days are busy being nostalgic over... ugh... [holding back vomit]...Journey and Boston.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:16 am 
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madcow1515 wrote:
I don't know about Europe, but in America, Frank has always been a bit of a cult figure. He's never really had much notoriety within the mainstream. …

In Europe or at least in Germany he was a well-known personality. When he was still alive I bet everybody knew who he was. But not because of his music mainly. Though A Token Of My Extreme was broadcast twice in the 70s on conservative public TV. When he did the Yellow Shark he was all over the place on TV. And when he died all the main news shows had a portrait.

But soon afterwards he seemed to be forgotten. I doubt that many people born after 1980 have ever heard his name.

Th.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:32 am 
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Just a word over the terms:
(for future references, anyone? - picture later. ...or jump to 'comment')

'originell' is a thing when it's fancy, inventive. So far so good.

'originär' goes more to being in the sense of authentic, dinkum, echt, genuine, legit, proper, pukka, pure, real, sincere, substantial, true, true-blue, true-born, truthful, unfeigned, warranted, bona fide, fair dinkum, spurious ..scilicet
aboriginal, natural, prime-etc, pristine, in the rough; absolute, all, clean, clear, immaculate, mere, net, pure, sheer, stark, unadulterated; connate, hereditary, inborn, inbred, inherent, innate, native; neck and crop; abiding, allegiant, constant, devoted, faithful, loyal, stalwart, true, trusty, staunch; born-and-bred, colour (water)-fast, dyed-in-the-wool, fast; to the core, out-and-out, quintessential, thoroughly, unalloyed, through and through; autonomous, freelance, independ, self-consistent, self-dependent, single, stand-alone, unaffiliated; pure, neat, undiluted; genuine; magnificient, wonderful etc; experienced; virtuosic or virtuoso. And also

original; central; live; causal, causative, aetiologic; in advance, ex ante; to begin with; first, preliminary; naturally; first; foremost; primarily; at first; first of all; incipiently; INITIAL, primarily, primary.



Comment

... you'll need all of that when reading further on. Let us compare the times of excellency when the first movement spread around the world on the very initial occasion, Rock n Roll, Hippie and Flower Power, OK? ...ya, with what nowadays? the contemporaries almost have lost all mind. There are exceptions, special, very unique spirits, taking off of the velocity from former beginnings and advancing on their path. The rest is simply shallow. So one'd need (to) tell them the essentials! minimum knowledge, the majority is blind, therefore (in) a jeopardy. Zappa had it fully together, so much so that it is a help for some many more generations. His genius is beyond all doubt, he just knew, methinks, what's it all about, so to speak. One may experiment with all in nature and mind if it is clear that nothing happens what never could be fixed. I think it's important. Read also T. Pratchett (http://www.Lspace.org) if need be. Him and Frank are my biggest ideals, and meself when I in the mood. Let this be your guide when at a lost, we are beings with a soul, the most underrated fakt. Agreed or am I right?-) Ciau-eehh

..that was not so very clever. Next contribution will show a somewhat ..dunno yet, a-hooh.

Edit: forget about what i've written when a future isn't desirable and choose instant karma. Eh, or help .... from above.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:34 pm 
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One more for the rowdy, tell the friend of Dwee how it could be won. From my perspective it is twilightning through a hazy fresh day say, arrangement of a few flicker apparatusses, a computer, the Son of Roxy views the concerts and his friend does the editing. Think that so the problem is almost history, namely getting the appropriate sequences on a medium. It'd be for his best, what do U believe? Settling to this task for a week or so, one song at a time, hears it while watching all material, choosing the adequate scenes, feeling laid back, relishing and learning at the same time. When he then also shows the music engineer one example of how to transcribe the sound files one to one, because they are already prancing on the finishing line, the CD-sellings could begin well before ... someone has a pumpkin to show him? smashin' stuff.

..seen from that little what there is al'-ready?... Dweez, this' the very sequential thing ta da.

.... could a person write a chain letter or summing on his webpage by any chance? ....good idea, even more so, if there was a reply. Ooh-wow....


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:42 pm 
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Thinman wrote:
madcow1515 wrote:
I don't know about Europe, but in America, Frank has always been a bit of a cult figure. He's never really had much notoriety within the mainstream. …

In Europe or at least in Germany he was a well-known personality. When he was still alive I bet everybody knew who he was. But not because of his music mainly. Though A Token Of My Extreme was broadcast twice in the 70s on conservative public TV. When he did the Yellow Shark he was all over the place on TV. And when he died all the main news shows had a portrait.

But soon afterwards he seemed to be forgotten. I doubt that many people born after 1980 have ever heard his name.

Th.


Perhaps. It's inevitable though. There will always be new fans, but I think it will be a receding proposition. I can't see anybody taking up that mantle.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:21 pm 
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I think Frank's music will continuously be rediscovered by some adventurous young musicians and fans. Probably not at a very brisk pace but it will always be there because it is so unique. To some degree I think he will be included in more formal music study too. He obviously isn't celebrated on classic rock radio like Hendrix, Led Zeppelin, etc. but he rarely got played on radio during his peak years of popularity either. People who "get it" will continue to "get it" and new fans will come along and be just as excited about it as us old folks. True, the stream may become a trickle but it will be a very long time before it completely dries up.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:50 pm 
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KillUgly's Paradise wrote:
I think Frank's music will continuously be rediscovered by some adventurous young musicians and fans. Probably not at a very brisk pace but it will always be there because it is so unique. To some degree I think he will be included in more formal music study too. He obviously isn't celebrated on classic rock radio like Hendrix, Led Zeppelin, etc. but he rarely got played on radio during his peak years of popularity either. People who "get it" will continue to "get it" and new fans will come along and be just as excited about it as us old folks. True, the stream may become a trickle but it will be a very long time before it completely dries up.



I agree and I have to add, the shows I saw (5) there were no insurmountable equipment issues, a short glitch at the Sac show with DZ's guitar but it lasted barely one song.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:50 am 
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Well, as it happens, ZPZ have just announced a show near me.

Tickets are at least £10 more than most other shows / acts that normally play this venue though.

:roll:


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 6:34 am 
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If I want to see ZPZ in Santa Rosa...I have to go to a Harmony Festival with all the loser idiots that wouldn't know their way to Nirvana if they had a map, DZ has to play Cosmik Debris at this show...not to mention a few other perfect choices!


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:00 am 
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PappaWas1975 wrote:
Well, as it happens, ZPZ have just announced a show near me.

Tickets are at least £10 more than most other shows / acts that normally play this venue though.

:roll:


After a little investigation, I found this to be untrue! Pretty much similar to other artists.

We are going to go.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:27 pm 
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I hope the play at Summer Camp 2010 and/or announce a couple dates near me during the summer. I don't hate ZPZ by any means, its one of the only ways I can get close to seeing my biggest musical influence live. I just prefer P/O : /


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:05 pm 
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good luck with that

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:07 am 
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Thinman wrote:
I notice a severe decrease of public interest in the music of Frank Zappa over the recent years.

I've recently read an analysis which basically says something like this (my own words – the original is in German): "Frank Zappa's music is mostly music about music. …" (At this point it also says in German, hard for me to translate: "Zappa's Musik ist originell aber nicht originär"). "… He created his own universe. His music works well and succeeded inside of his universe but is rather meaningless outside. …" (Edit: For everyone who can read and understand German, this is the original source: http://www.roxikon.de/rock/rock-personen/frank-zappa/)

This might be shocking and leaving much room for discussion when a lifetime fan like myself has to admit: This is quite fitting and could be true. And I'm afraid: His universe was alive as long as he was alive. But when he died also his music died and has by now disappeared into insignificance for any new "scene" or generation including the music scene.

DZPZ's efforts don't really change this.

I hope someone gets what I'm trying to say – despite my rudimentary English.

Th.

Sabretoophairy wrote:
'originell' is a thing when it's fancy, inventive. So far so good.

'originär' goes more to being in the sense of authentic, dinkum, echt, genuine, legit, proper, pukka, pure, real, sincere, substantial, true, true-blue, true-born, truthful, unfeigned, warranted, bona fide, fair dinkum [...]

Well, Thinman, I skimmed your article, and so far I've only found well known information plus the writer's view, with the verdict of Zappa as originell and not originär as the gist of his opinion. You have questioned Zappa's status as a groundbreaking composer before, with reference to supposedly more radical figures, such as Stockhausen. Even if you are reasonably well-informed, I have to say I find your disappoinment a bit naïve. You're a fan for God's sake! Why do you rely on an outwardly correct, really very orthodox view of a writer from the German music establishment? If you have had any deeper experience of Zappa's music, you must know that it is both originell and originär. Zappa was a biting (and sometimes superficial) satirist and a profoundly musical soul, who transmitted the most basic existential truths through his music. You should learn his lesson better and stand up against the verdict of both the ignorant masses and the elitist establishment with your own judgment. What does it matter to you that there's a decreasing interest in Zappa in Germany? If you're a fan, you know that the philistines are wrong. I know that Zappa wasn't perfect and that his work contains a lot of ammunition for his detractors. But I also know how strong his music is, and how it speaks to me. So what if it's "preposterously non-modern" at times? You won't find works like Lumpy Gravy, The Chrome Plated Megaphone of Destiny, Weasels Ripped My Flesh, Canarsie, Canard du Jour, The Girl in the Magnesium Dress, Porn Wars, Strat Vindaloo, N-Light or Everything Is Healing Nicely in the canon of Stockhausen and his peers. And that's both a weakness in that tradition and a compliment to Zappa's diversity and establishment critique. So don't worry if the tide is going against Zappa. Your lexicon is wrong. His work is truly originär, and there will always be a place for it.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:30 pm 
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In my humble opinion...LOL...everyone is putting way to much thought into this, it is truely simple in nature. FZ was an original complex musician and composer, his son has surrounded himself with top shelf talent and alumni when possible to perform his fathers music, DZ is a very talented musician in his own right. There is really no good reason that makes any sense at all to not go see this band, they are head and shoulders above the others because they are grounded into the Zappa legacy by Dweezil. If you do not go for any reason other than finacial reasons, it has to be motivated by some mental machinations based in a strained sense of superior understanding, that I can not fathom.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:41 pm 
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Plook wrote:
In my humble opinion...LOL...everyone is putting way to much thought into this, it is truely simple in nature. FZ was an original complex musician and composer, his son has surrounded himself with top shelf talent and alumni when possible to perform his fathers music, DZ is a very talented musician in his own right. There is really no good reason that makes any sense at all to not go see this band, they are head and shoulders above the others because they are grounded into the Zappa legacy by Dweezil. If you do not go for any reason other than finacial reasons, it has to be motivated by some mental machinations based in a strained sense of superior understanding, that I can not fathom.

Well put.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:37 pm 
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..while you bring this up :P ... wouldn't it be time to get that dreamboat off the rock and see how it will plunge through the atmosphere? alluding to all the capers, laughs and lollos. Along all the mere dwizardry you only keep burnings. What this is saying is that I suspect that there is more to life. Watch you try.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:19 pm 
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Sabretoophairy wrote:
..while you bring this up :P ... wouldn't it be time to get that dreamboat off the rock and see how it will plunge through the atmosphere? alluding to all the capers, laughs and lollos. Along all the mere dwizardry you only keep burnings. What this is saying is that I suspect that there is more to life. Watch you try.



If DZ read this crap he would lose interest in ZPZ... :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:32 am 
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zootallurs wrote:
Plook wrote:
In my humble opinion...LOL...everyone is putting way to much thought into this, it is truely simple in nature. FZ was an original complex musician and composer, his son has surrounded himself with top shelf talent and alumni when possible to perform his fathers music, DZ is a very talented musician in his own right. There is really no good reason that makes any sense at all to not go see this band, they are head and shoulders above the others because they are grounded into the Zappa legacy by Dweezil. If you do not go for any reason other than finacial reasons, it has to be motivated by some mental machinations based in a strained sense of superior understanding, that I can not fathom.

Well put.

And totally contrary to your opinion in the first post of this thread 8)

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:02 am 
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Dark Clothes wrote:
Well, Thinman, I skimmed your article, and so far I've only found well known information plus the writer's view, with the verdict of Zappa as originell and not originär as the gist of his opinion. You have questioned Zappa's status as a groundbreaking composer before, with reference to supposedly more radical figures, such as Stockhausen. Even if you are reasonably well-informed, I have to say I find your disappoinment a bit naïve. You're a fan for God's sake! Why do you rely on an outwardly correct, really very orthodox view of a writer from the German music establishment? If you have had any deeper experience of Zappa's music, you must know that it is both originell and originär. Zappa was a biting (and sometimes superficial) satirist and a profoundly musical soul, who transmitted the most basic existential truths through his music. You should learn his lesson better and stand up against the verdict of both the ignorant masses and the elitist establishment with your own judgment. What does it matter to you that there's a decreasing interest in Zappa in Germany? If you're a fan, you know that the philistines are wrong. I know that Zappa wasn't perfect and that his work contains a lot of ammunition for his detractors. But I also know how strong his music is, and how it speaks to me. So what if it's "preposterously non-modern" at times? You won't find works like Lumpy Gravy, The Chrome Plated Megaphone of Destiny, Weasels Ripped My Flesh, Canarsie, Canard du Jour, The Girl in the Magnesium Dress, Porn Wars, Strat Vindaloo, N-Light or Everything Is Healing Nicely in the canon of Stockhausen and his peers. And that's both a weakness in that tradition and a compliment to Zappa's diversity and establishment critique. So don't worry if the tide is going against Zappa. Your lexicon is wrong. His work is truly originär, and there will always be a place for it.


Everything you write is somehow true.

I absorbed Frank's music for decades, listened to everything a million times, thought about it for countless hours and probably died for every new release. But at some point it is also good to move on and discover other things (especially when the man is dead for many years). It is possible to be a fan, have a good knowledge about it, and to leave room for critical and provoking thoughts and other people's opinions at he same time.

Frank's music doesn't have the importance for me now than it used to have. That doesn't mean it is not still there (in everything I do, probably). But it is somehow checked off these days and giving room for so much other music to discover.

On topic: Therefore personally I don't need a cover band (having seen them three times) trying note-for-note renditions when I can always go over to that shelf and listen to the original.

Th.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:00 am 
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This is 123% correct, to me view, where one-hundred and eleven would depict blurferctness. At this stretch not sure if one wanted to hear, like you said, a concert with purely note 4 note emulations, certainly not ..eh-yeah. At the same time was I pondering about a letter. The only problem a person might create for itself is simply striving for perfectionism a!! the while. Now.. a post to no rokkoko rascal in particular, grandeur-stylee:


Worthy Sir, dear Dwizzle ,

hello my friend, ..here a short mess from a forumer, still in progress....
What you! say, Saturday morning early awake .. waiting for nothing fourgods.

..it really is a bit premature. Although, the dandelions are beginning to move. - Could you make a tea from'em? tell ya soon!-)

... ta for the thoughtfullness, yours etc...


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:16 am 
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Dark Clothes wrote:
zootallurs wrote:
Plook wrote:
In my humble opinion...LOL...everyone is putting way to much thought into this, it is truely simple in nature. FZ was an original complex musician and composer, his son has surrounded himself with top shelf talent and alumni when possible to perform his fathers music, DZ is a very talented musician in his own right. There is really no good reason that makes any sense at all to not go see this band, they are head and shoulders above the others because they are grounded into the Zappa legacy by Dweezil. If you do not go for any reason other than finacial reasons, it has to be motivated by some mental machinations based in a strained sense of superior understanding, that I can not fathom.

Well put.

And totally contrary to your opinion in the first post of this thread 8)



How???
:?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:36 am 
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Plook wrote:
Dark Clothes wrote:
zootallurs wrote:
Well put.

And totally contrary to your opinion in the first post of this thread 8)



How???
:?

zootallurs quoted you, I quoted zootallurs. When I quote zootallurs, my comment is directed at zootallurs. What you're saying here is contrary to zootallurs first post in the thread. He was losing interest in ZPZ, you're saying that they are great, now he's saying that you are right on. I didn't refer to the other 20% of your post, about other posters 8) 8) 8)

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:47 am 
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Dark Clothes wrote:
zootallurs wrote:
Plook wrote:
In my humble opinion...LOL...everyone is putting way to much thought into this, it is truely simple in nature. FZ was an original complex musician and composer, his son has surrounded himself with top shelf talent and alumni when possible to perform his fathers music, DZ is a very talented musician in his own right. There is really no good reason that makes any sense at all to not go see this band, they are head and shoulders above the others because they are grounded into the Zappa legacy by Dweezil. If you do not go for any reason other than finacial reasons, it has to be motivated by some mental machinations based in a strained sense of superior understanding, that I can not fathom.

Well put.

And totally contrary to your opinion in the first post of this thread 8)

That is how I felt when I started this thread. Now the purpose of a forum is to discuss and argue and maybe even change one's opinion. That is what happened to me. I believe that other points are view are necessary so we can make the choice to change our minds. If I expected everyone to say "You are correct, ZPZ sucks, I won't see them, they bore me" or whatever, then this board would be of little to no value to anyone. And now there has been three pages of discussion and I have changed my orginal viewpoint. Also, any discussion, even contrary to my own position, that is well written is worthy of compliment. There now feel better?

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