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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:20 am 
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A rope leash wrote:
Sorry about your granma, B.

The thing is, you can't ask a tobacco user to stop. It's a legal, advertised product that is exceptionally addictive. While I've found quitting weed to be a pain in the ass, tobacco addicts find quitting cigarettes to be practically impossible. Earth help you if you have to live with a smoker in withdrawal.

As for the horrible death it may cause, well...many deaths are horrible. As for asking someone else to pay for the disease...well, how about requiring the Marlboro men to pay for it directly instead of them giving the money to a dishonest government that will waste it on other agendas?

All in all, I don't care how someone got sick...this world is full of pitfalls that anyone can fall into. If society can't keep a substance off the streets, then society must deal with those folks that wind up getting hurt by it. Right now, I'd rather see my tax money going to heal the illnesses of our citizens than going to bogus and painfully destructive war efforts.

In a fair world, distillers and fag makers would be just as in jail as the streetcorner drug dealer. Either that, or there would be a regulated market for all substances of pleasure. It couldn't cost any more than the huge law enforcement/incarceration scam we got going now.

But, in the end, we should feel sorry for the addict. Sure, granma should have never taken that first puff...but what were the circumstances? Availability, legality, and an artificial yet tangible aura of "cool". Shit, even kids today wind up smoking after being forewarned time and time again. A pleasurable habit is just that...a fun addiction. People want to have fun... but of course, some folks are going to wind up getting hurt.

That's just the way it is.

I agree with you on all but two points.
Suing the companies is a cop out, I made the decision to smoke, it is my responsibility, all comments made tongue in cheek aside.
Since it is the decision of the addict to remain addicted, there is no need to pity them, they could have chosen to deny themselves that which they wanted at any time.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:42 am 
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Sorry to hear about your grandmother BBP, all I will say is celebrate the life while you can and don't focus on the inevitable misques that will be contianed within it.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:52 am 
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Rope Leash: OF COURSE you can ask someone to quit smoking! It kills! In the Dutch news today: 33% of premature births is caused by smoking by the mother. And it's very bad for the environment. And you're getting besides my point: your family and friends will suffer greatly now that you are ill, and I can assure you they will be very upset if you fail to learn from your errors. What you're doing now is you're finding excuses for smoking so that you don't have to feel bad or guilty for yourself when you light up another cig, rather than accepting the fact that there's nothing good about smoking.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:13 pm 
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You can ask someone to quit smoking, sure...but it will have little effect until the smoker decides to quit, so asking is pretty much moot. That's addiction.

It is not the decision of the addict to remain addicted. This is the nature of addiction. The pain of withdrawal can only be supressed by the substance itself. Until you have been in this position, you can't understand it. The addict isn't making excuses...the addict is avoiding the pain of withdrawal.

I currently live with an alcoholic. She knows that if she takes one drink, it will be weeks of misery. The withdrawals include shakes, convulsions, sweats, hallucinations, puking, puking, puking, gut pains, diharrea...I'm telling you it's fucking horrible. The only thing that stops the withdrawal symptoms is another drink. Yet...the disease infects the person so thoroughly that once sober the person will convince him or herself that they can have just a drink or two without consequences. This, after hundreds of very painful episodes in the past proving otherwise. Do alcoholics do it just because they are assholes? It might look that way to the uninitiated, but the truth is the alcoholic is a person with a severe illness.

...and what can be done about it? What can be done when every store from Safeway to 7-11 carries the product and sells it freely nearly everytime...legally? Sure, there's AA, rehab, whatever...let me tell you the drunk I live with is a long time member of AA and has been in rehab a half-dozen times at least, and she's not cured at all. As long as booze is somehow available, the alcoholic will self-administer until dead. It's a fact.

Now, these tobacco guys grow it, roll it, and sell it to people knowing full well that many of them will never be able to stop. They don't just sell it, they promote it as something quite good. Same goes for booze, in its way. Sounds like a drug pusher to me, but it's legal just about worldwide. So, what has been said here is that the drug pusher is not responsible for creating a string of drug addicts, it's the addicts themselves to blame. Well, in the vast majority of cases the addict wouldn't be an addict if someone else wasn't providing and promoting. If the law cannot keep the substance off the streets, society has no business damning the addict.

A lot is said about individual responsibility, but e pluribus unum. Somehow, even after so much evidence of damage, nations have decided to allow alcohol and tobacco. Tacitly, the nations are saying "it's okay"...so for the nation to abandon the addict and say "it's your fault" is really an abandonment of a certain percentage of its populace.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:29 pm 
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BBP wrote:
What you're doing now is you're finding excuses for smoking so that you don't have to feel bad or guilty for yourself when you light up another cig, rather than accepting the fact that there's nothing good about smoking.


Very sorry to hear you grandmother is ill BBP.
Truth is tobacco is highly addictive and it's evident in the way people harshly defend it even as they are dying from it. Ive had 2 grandmothers and 1 aunt die from the effects of smoking. My aunt was barely in her 50s and my cousins are barely in their 30s now. I have another aunt that has had throat cancer removed and is still fighting the effects from smoking most of her life, even after she quit 10 years ago.
I don't smoke mostly because I cant stand the taste. The first time I tried it I threw up. If it weren't for that I may be a smoker...I don't feel above any smoker but I do think it's a pitiful addiction. There are many addictions which are less harmful and some are even beneficial. I think it's a part of human nature to be addicted to something whether it be a substance or a process.
In California it is getting tough for smokers in public, and I think everyone has the right to treat themselves however they want so I somewhat sympathize with the smokers argument. But at the same time, I don't want to have to smell it while I'm eating or trapped somewhere where I cant escape it. Its rude if nothing else when you know people around you don't want to breathe your smoke. On the other hand, there are certain places, like bars and nightclubs or any adult establishment, where it should be allowed or at least provide a section other than out the back door.
The problem I have is with the attitude of some smokers, which is 'Fuck em, I don't give a shit, were all gonna die anyway', I believe that's the addiction talking.

Tobacco can be a beneficial drug for some people. Anxiety kills too and for some, smoking relieves anxiety. I maintain there are alternatives which are less harmful to everyone.
We all know Frank drank a lot of coffee and smoked a lot of cigarettes. I believe these two substances gave him the fuel to work the long hours he did and accomplish the greatness that he left behind. 'nuff said

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:07 pm 
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i smoked for 28 years- from age 16 to age 44. i quit because i could see the damage it was doing to me and also i knew that as children of a smoker, my kids would probably take up the habit, as i had followed my father. after quitting, i gained 40 pounds (mostly due to hershey's kisses). still, i started to feel better almost immediatly. my senses of smell and taste came back and i got back into competitive sports, something that i had given up years before. i have lost some of that extra weight but feel great. it's been 11 years now and i still play competitive vollyball, kayak and hike. if i was smoking there is no way i could do what i do. also, at 5 bucks a pack, my cd collection would never have gotten as big as it has. :) i can't believe that my clothes smelled like a smokers clothes do and that my breath ever stunk like a smoker's does. quitting was the hardest thing that i ever did but it was worth every bit of suffering that i went through. i quit cold turkey. i didn't tell my wife or anyone else that i was doing it. i just did it. tobacco is the most insidious drug ever discovered by man. i think that any of you that say you truly enjoy the habit and want to continue are in deep denial. flame me if you want but that's how this ex-smoker truly feels.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:12 pm 
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Sorry to hear about your family members Cletus.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:19 pm 
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We'd already discussed this item in another thread if I remember right. I'm still smoking like a chimney.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:27 pm 
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lumber god wrote:
i smoked for 28 years- from age 16 to age 44. i quit because i could see the damage it was doing to me and also i knew that as children of a smoker, my kids would probably take up the habit, as i had followed my father. after quitting, i gained 40 pounds (mostly due to hershey's kisses). still, i started to feel better almost immediatly. my senses of smell and taste came back and i got back into competitive sports, something that i had given up years before. i have lost some of that extra weight but feel great. it's been 11 years now and i still play competitive vollyball, kayak and hike. if i was smoking there is no way i could do what i do. also, at 5 bucks a pack, my cd collection would never have gotten as big as it has. :) i can't believe that my clothes smelled like a smokers clothes do and that my breath ever stunk like a smoker's does. quitting was the hardest thing that i ever did but it was worth every bit of suffering that i went through. i quit cold turkey. i didn't tell my wife or anyone else that i was doing it. i just did it. tobacco is the most insidious drug ever discovered by man. i think that any of you that say you truly enjoy the habit and want to continue are in deep denial. flame me if you want but that's how this ex-smoker truly feels.

I won't flame you, I'd just say you have no way of knowing our actual thoughts.
I spent much of my young life in an oxygen tent, with chronic bronchitis and pneumonia that I would get two, three times a year. I began smoking cigarettes at age 15 and that all ended. I'm not saying it's good for you, or anything like that, but it did very literally make my life better, it forced my lungs to get stronger. I see no reason why I should be forced by society to quit something that helped me just so they can have their piece of mind and feel all righteous. I don't see it as any different really from any prescription drug that anyone has to take that is addictive, in fact cigarettes used to be prescribed by doctors for just the purpose that I state above. And there were also other mixes that were prescribed as a cure for asthma. Now I know that it isn't a cure, but it did help.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:57 pm 
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I have been smoking almost non-stop for 35 years.

Last week I had a thallium stress test and an echocardiogram.
BOOYA!
No problems.

Maybe someday, if I'm lucky, I can smoke through a hole in my neck.
Cigarettes have been known to cause bad breath!

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:25 pm 
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one of the uglies wrote:
lumber god wrote:
i smoked for 28 years- from age 16 to age 44. i quit because i could see the damage it was doing to me and also i knew that as children of a smoker, my kids would probably take up the habit, as i had followed my father. after quitting, i gained 40 pounds (mostly due to hershey's kisses). still, i started to feel better almost immediatly. my senses of smell and taste came back and i got back into competitive sports, something that i had given up years before. i have lost some of that extra weight but feel great. it's been 11 years now and i still play competitive vollyball, kayak and hike. if i was smoking there is no way i could do what i do. also, at 5 bucks a pack, my cd collection would never have gotten as big as it has. :) i can't believe that my clothes smelled like a smokers clothes do and that my breath ever stunk like a smoker's does. quitting was the hardest thing that i ever did but it was worth every bit of suffering that i went through. i quit cold turkey. i didn't tell my wife or anyone else that i was doing it. i just did it. tobacco is the most insidious drug ever discovered by man. i think that any of you that say you truly enjoy the habit and want to continue are in deep denial. flame me if you want but that's how this ex-smoker truly feels.

I won't flame you, I'd just say you have no way of knowing our actual thoughts.
I spent much of my young life in an oxygen tent, with chronic bronchitis and pneumonia that I would get two, three times a year. I began smoking cigarettes at age 15 and that all ended. I'm not saying it's good for you, or anything like that, but it did very literally make my life better, it forced my lungs to get stronger. I see no reason why I should be forced by society to quit something that helped me just so they can have their piece of mind and feel all righteous. I don't see it as any different really from any prescription drug that anyone has to take that is addictive, in fact cigarettes used to be prescribed by doctors for just the purpose that I state above. And there were also other mixes that were prescribed as a cure for asthma. Now I know that it isn't a cure, but it did help.


Hell until I hurt my knee in a car accident I was in tri-athlete shape and smoked 2 paks a day...I still smoke maybe a pack a day and don't puff to the butt, and I began working out and running and I feel great. I am sorry but even though I know ciggs can cause problems I believe it is a huge scapegoat for what medical science is unable to figure out...cancer, so blame it all on ciggs. Like I said there is no way the folks from the 30's-60's would have lasted so long in such great numbers if it was as bad as claimed. It is easier to blame ciggs, than to figure out what other man made environmental causes could be at work. Hey if it turned out to actually be something like vehicle exhaust what would happen then...hum that would be a shoe on another foot


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:02 pm 
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I am a smoker (16 years, since the age of 16). I have lost my father to lung cancer (although the official diagnosis was that his was a cancer of undetermined origin. He WAS a smoker, but also worked at Polaroid during the 70's when they had those poor bastards virtually bathing in the chemicals needed to produce the film they manufactured. All but two of the 35 people in his department died before the age of 55.) I know it is a filthy, disgusting habit and yes I should quit. For all the reasons, my health will improve, I'll save money, it smells bad (although I LIKE the smell. Always have.) But what bothers me is that often times non smokers judge a person who smokes. What I mean by that is that there seems to be a school of thought out there that if you smoke, you're a BAD PERSON. Which obviously isn't the case. I'm the guy most likely to give you a jump start, help you carry a sofa, or give you a ride to the airport and expect nothing in return, but I see the way people look at me when I smoke and they cut their eyes at me like I'm a fucking criminal man. That shit ain't right. Just because people make poor choices for their health doesn't automatically make them bad people. Or I could be paranoid. I dunno. But it sure feels like it sometimes.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:46 pm 
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joonya77 wrote:
I am a smoker (16 years, since the age of 16). I have lost my father to lung cancer (although the official diagnosis was that his was a cancer of undetermined origin. He WAS a smoker, but also worked at Polaroid during the 70's when they had those poor bastards virtually bathing in the chemicals needed to produce the film they manufactured. All but two of the 35 people in his department died before the age of 55.) I know it is a filthy, disgusting habit and yes I should quit. For all the reasons, my health will improve, I'll save money, it smells bad (although I LIKE the smell. Always have.) But what bothers me is that often times non smokers judge a person who smokes. What I mean by that is that there seems to be a school of thought out there that if you smoke, you're a BAD PERSON. Which obviously isn't the case. I'm the guy most likely to give you a jump start, help you carry a sofa, or give you a ride to the airport and expect nothing in return, but I see the way people look at me when I smoke and they cut their eyes at me like I'm a fucking criminal man. That shit ain't right. Just because people make poor choices for their health doesn't automatically make them bad people. Or I could be paranoid. I dunno. But it sure feels like it sometimes.
You and I are Bad People who commit murder by indirection and The Government ought to put a swift end to our continuing wanton path of destruction. Who knows better than The Government and the Industry that rules it? Science is so pure and objective, unaffected and unswayed by billions upon billions of dollars.

Remember, society is everyone! That is, everyone but you, no matter who you are and it's your lifelong duty to serve it.

And I'd hate so much to be on the road and see a smoking driver ahead of me! A drunk? Aw, that's just somebody who knows how to have a good time.

$¢ien¢e says: "Rid this nation of tobacco and we will double the human life expectancy!" If it weren't for the High Priests of $¢ien¢e what would we know?

You'd just better hope you can avoid those who hold the moral brickbats or they'll beat your fucking head in. All the courtesy you may show doesn't amount to a puddle of piss. Look down through the ages and those of high moral standing have always taken delight in forming mobs, posses and constructing pillories to control immoral minorities. It's just the way of the world! (Well, the human world -- and, people, we ain't wrapped too tight.)

--Bat :P

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:56 am 
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I smoke because it gives me an excuse to be alone for about 5 minutes and read or ponder; it is,however, a stupid habit.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:13 am 
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Caputh wrote:
I smoke because it gives me an excuse to be alone for about 5 minutes and read or ponder; it is,however, a stupid habit.

That's why I poo. :D Well, one of the reasons...

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:21 am 
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E pluribus unum - out of many one.

I think there may be two ways of interpreting the intention of this.
One way would be subjugative. This implies that the individual must relinquish their own beliefs and conform to the will of the majority. Obviously this is counter to the intentions of the Bill of Rights, and the historical trend towards increasing the rights of the individual and recognizing the rights of individuals whose rights were once denied.

The other is cooperative. In this view individuals determine that they will work together for the benefit of each other despite their differences. This seems more the intention of the founding fathers of this country. JMO

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:43 am 
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Sam I Am wrote:
Caputh wrote:
I smoke because it gives me an excuse to be alone for about 5 minutes and read or ponder; it is,however, a stupid habit.

That's why I poo. :D Well, one of the reasons...

But pooing is not a stupid habit (unless you over-indulge) :)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:01 pm 
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Plook wrote:
one of the uglies wrote:
lumber god wrote:
i smoked for 28 years- from age 16 to age 44. i quit because i could see the damage it was doing to me and also i knew that as children of a smoker, my kids would probably take up the habit, as i had followed my father. after quitting, i gained 40 pounds (mostly due to hershey's kisses). still, i started to feel better almost immediatly. my senses of smell and taste came back and i got back into competitive sports, something that i had given up years before. i have lost some of that extra weight but feel great. it's been 11 years now and i still play competitive vollyball, kayak and hike. if i was smoking there is no way i could do what i do. also, at 5 bucks a pack, my cd collection would never have gotten as big as it has. :) i can't believe that my clothes smelled like a smokers clothes do and that my breath ever stunk like a smoker's does. quitting was the hardest thing that i ever did but it was worth every bit of suffering that i went through. i quit cold turkey. i didn't tell my wife or anyone else that i was doing it. i just did it. tobacco is the most insidious drug ever discovered by man. i think that any of you that say you truly enjoy the habit and want to continue are in deep denial. flame me if you want but that's how this ex-smoker truly feels.

I won't flame you, I'd just say you have no way of knowing our actual thoughts.
I spent much of my young life in an oxygen tent, with chronic bronchitis and pneumonia that I would get two, three times a year. I began smoking cigarettes at age 15 and that all ended. I'm not saying it's good for you, or anything like that, but it did very literally make my life better, it forced my lungs to get stronger. I see no reason why I should be forced by society to quit something that helped me just so they can have their piece of mind and feel all righteous. I don't see it as any different really from any prescription drug that anyone has to take that is addictive, in fact cigarettes used to be prescribed by doctors for just the purpose that I state above. And there were also other mixes that were prescribed as a cure for asthma. Now I know that it isn't a cure, but it did help.


Hell until I hurt my knee in a car accident I was in tri-athlete shape and smoked 2 paks a day...I still smoke maybe a pack a day and don't puff to the butt, and I began working out and running and I feel great. I am sorry but even though I know ciggs can cause problems I believe it is a huge scapegoat for what medical science is unable to figure out...cancer, so blame it all on ciggs. Like I said there is no way the folks from the 30's-60's would have lasted so long in such great numbers if it was as bad as claimed. It is easier to blame ciggs, than to figure out what other man made environmental causes could be at work. Hey if it turned out to actually be something like vehicle exhaust what would happen then...hum that would be a shoe on another foot


Medical Science knows that the main cause of cancer isn't smoking, it's processed foods by a light year. However admitting that the food they sell us, almost force upon is, is riddled with cancer causing chemicals of course isn't part of their agenda so it's easier for them to blame something else. Rather than address the real issue and cost themselves billions in the process.



I'm not saying smoking cigarettes is good for your health, but it's certainly not as bad as they make out

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:38 am 
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TheCentralScrutinizer wrote:

Medical Science knows that the main cause of cancer isn't smoking, it's processed foods by a light year. However admitting that the food they sell us, almost force upon is, is riddled with cancer causing chemicals of course isn't part of their agenda so it's easier for them to blame something else. Rather than address the real issue and cost themselves billions in the process.

I'm not saying smoking cigarettes is good for your health, but it's certainly not as bad as they make out


I don't know enough about the cancer/processed foods issue to comment but what is true that some non smokers are over zealous (and irrational) in their desire to link most illnesses causally to smoking. For example, wnen i was diagnosed with tuberculosis one work colleague told me that my illness was due to my smoking, no ifs no buts, he knew this and could not be told otherwise. Of course he was wrong and my contraction of TB had nothing to do with my smoking at all. Some non smokers seem to fail to recognise that smokers get illnesses which are not linked to their smoking and that non smokers also get certain illnesses despite not smoking.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:43 am 
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What processed foods do we have to avoid, or aren't the 'medical scientists' letting on?

I'm sure that there are some weird over processed 'foods' out there, but come on. Give me examples.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:48 am 
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Quilt wrote:
What processed foods do we have to avoid, or aren't the 'medical scientists' letting on?

I'm sure that there are some weird over processed 'foods' out there, but come on. Give me examples.


You know those fries/chips you can buy in those freezer-bags? It was discovered they contained a relative lot of carcinogetic substances.

Something else you'll want to avoid is Kellogs cornflakes with extra iron. They don't put iron in it that your body can process, but instead plain ground iron, that will just pass through your digestive system. Eating too much of them can cause damage to internal organs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_K
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY33Br2umA4

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:23 am 
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BBP wrote:
Quilt wrote:
What processed foods do we have to avoid, or aren't the 'medical scientists' letting on?

I'm sure that there are some weird over processed 'foods' out there, but come on. Give me examples.


You know those fries/chips you can buy in those freezer-bags? It was discovered they contained a relative lot of carcinogetic substances.

Something else you'll want to avoid is Kellogs cornflakes with extra iron. They don't put iron in it that your body can process, but instead plain ground iron, that will just pass through your digestive system. Eating too much of them can cause damage to internal organs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_K
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY33Br2umA4



Uh Oh! I like oven chips! and corn flakes too. Yikes.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:35 am 
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Well, I think worrying plays a medium-sized role in getting cancer and if I spent the whole time worrying about absolutely everything I consume, I might get cancer and die without having enjoyed myself very much before.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:28 am 
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Caputh wrote:
Well, I think worrying plays a medium-sized role in getting cancer and if I spent the whole time worrying about absolutely everything I consume, I might get cancer and die without having enjoyed myself very much before.



Let’s face it if you protected yourself from everything that could harm you, you would live in a bubble suit and that would probably be bad for you too! As far as I am concerned the book of life has already been written and when the bullet with your name comes you will be unable to avoid it, even if you were aware of it. So live your life and let the chips fall where they may...

8)


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:44 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:41 am
Posts: 1198
Pretty much anything in life carries a risk-most of the fun stuff anyway.
Smoking's just one of those things that doesn't have much of a positive side to it, and even moderate smoking is harmful-unlike modest alcohol consumption.

It's our adult choice to do what we want. It's a shame that most smokers (and drinkers) probably get hooked before they are truly 'adult', and so spend the rest of their smoking days trying to justify their habit.
Most of my family smoke, but none of them really want to keep smoking. But tobacco is just so hard to kick.

Good luck to anyone who makes a New Year's resolution to stop.


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