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 Post subject: self education
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:44 pm 
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FZ promoted self education at the library, but didn't like to read books. I sit around in class for half of my day, toiling with the "high school's a wonderful preparation for life in a factory" quote, and I can't help but think what's the difference between reading these school books here and reading similar books at the library? can we elaborate on what self education is all about? :)

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:50 pm 
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Well at the library you can actually choose what title or subject you are going to study, rather differently from the classroom "dictatorship"... Self-education only works for people like FZ, with very sharp work discipline (or if you have all the time of the world in your hands)...

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:14 pm 
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I'm self educated. OK bad example. :D

No actually though I got kicked out of school for scaring the kids in the class one floor under me with a dummy out the window. They sent me to "alternative" high school and it was a bunch of low class idiots who smoked pot all day and interupted class when they did actually go.

I got a job at a linen supply as a janitor in 1979 and then started reading books from the library just like Frank said. I'm no brainiac but I can carry on conversations with college edumucated peoples and they think I went to one too.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:51 pm 
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barely staying on subject...

Being pushed along through classes every day makes me sick. Sometimes I end up doing strange things just to keep myself from being miserable, like in gym class, where i rolled up a piece of paper and walked around with it sticking out from my shorts like it was a raging boner. My teacher smiled at me. Sick. :P

School isn't a bad place to keep permanently dumb people moving around and feeling like they're doing things right, and you could look at it as a necessary American opposition for smarter folks to make the better decision, and get their education elsewhere. What I hate is how the teachers connect everything to college, and talk to us like they assume that it's the necessary next step, and every one's going.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:10 pm 
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FZ left out the "get a job" part where you can learn abuncha stuff you can't learn at the library. Quit school, go to the library, and get a job.

If you get sick of that job, you may discover a reason to get schooling to get training to get a different job. Or maybe you'll never get sick of it.

Live like yer gonna die tomorrow and learn like yer gonna live forever.

vcf

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:19 pm 
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VCF wrote:
If you get sick of that job, you may discover a reason to get schooling to get training to get a different job. Or maybe you'll never get sick of it.


yeah, that makes sense

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:50 pm 
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Why not do both, Cranky? I know it's a lot of work, but in reality, it was Zappa did.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:24 pm 
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VCF wrote:

Live like yer gonna die tomorrow and learn like yer gonna live forever.




Nice quote, that one. :)

Going to school gives you the formal "qualifications" that enable you to do what you want to do later in life... The better your "qualifications", the more choices you have. Now, of course, if you know from an early age what it is you want to do... and if, say, a high school diploma isn't needed to get where you want to be, do what you want to do, and be contented, then why bother with high school at all? THe problem being that if you then hit 35 and realise you want to do something else, but aren't qualified for it, its going to take alot more work to get there than it would be if you'd got the necessary qualifications in the first place, in high school and university.

For me, considering what I"ve just said, High School and University are a necessity. I don't know what I want to do. I have interests ranging from music to politics to science, and thus the bettter my "qualifications", the more choices I am likely to have later on in life. I learn a fair amount at school... mainly because I use it as a basis from which I am able to teach myself... and go further in depth, or find new areas of interest. In that respect, high school really is quite handy. Its just a shame you have to put up with the incessantly annoying and boring people that seem to plague high schools , and the classes that you are "required" to take, that for the most part waste your time, such as gym... ... I was about to say "and all those other classes that you wouldn't take if you weren't forced to..." but actually I was forced to take Law last year, as a physical art (must do one year of fine art, one year of physical art (between law, cooking, and word processing, I chose law)) and hated the school system at first for forcing me to waste an elective on that rather than AP Music Theory, which I am taking this year, but I learned a fuck of a lot of useful information from that Law class...


Its late here, not finished my homework yet, so please forgive gramatical/spelling errors. :)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:48 pm 
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Real good points King!

My shitty school never once mentioned College... ever. They just kept pushing me ahead without ever checking if the stuff they were trying to teach me sunk in. Trying not to use the word victim here i was one of those "Social Promotion" kids always being different than the others and a huge Zappa fan from a real young age left me always wanting more but never getting it from my teachers. I still wish I had learned Math better as it would have at least helped me in real life more.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:18 pm 
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I always studied hard at school and then at college and yeah I got really good results. I managed to get a pretty ok paying job in 1992, but, 15 years later, Im still employed by the same shitty people (Government) and treated like absolute crap. I am now desperate to get out of that dump, and hopefully will be out soon (which is another story).
My view is, if you can, go to college, study, and get qualifications. When Zappa made that statement, a lot of the courses that are available now, weren't then. My point being, you can now study something that specifically interests you, once you leave school, if you so desire. There are so many courses to choose from, and they're much more diverse than those that were around when Zappa was younger. Qualifications, as already mentioned here, allow you to be able to get a decent well paid job temporarily so if you want to, you can save enough to be able to eventually (before you hit 30, hopefully) have enough savings behind you to do what makes you happy.
Life is fucking short, and ultimately, here to be enjoyed. Took me a while to realise that I don't have to sit in a shitty ofice to earn a living (its soul destroying!).
For anyone lucky enough to already have financial backing, fuck qualifications, and just do what makes you happy. 8)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:54 pm 
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There is always more somewhere to learn and do. Many unnecessarily give up on the hope that they will find 'the thing' that will make them happy. If you give up on the chance to learn something altogether, you may as well just give up. In addition to the habits of disciplined learning (the constant practice, research, writing, playing etc), bits of whatever you work on and however you do it, will always have relevance in some other field, if only obliquely. So to begin with it doesn't really matter what you get into. The more things you look at and investigate tho, the more jive you'll be able to talk about to other people, and then the more you'll be able to learn. But you know this alraedy.
Keep learning different 'disciplines', some physical: strength, health, dexterity; some mental: awareness of different fields: physical, madstract, relational; applications of knowledge, coupled with interactions with people in those fields; some economic . . .
all of these things and more can be learned outside of university but they offer a way into the corporate field of interests that about now are driving the engines of the world's wealth distribution . . .
I recommend travel to foreign places for people after 'secondary school' -- with some self-confidence issues dealt with for the psychologically assured western youth, most 18-26 year old's from the west can travel in most places (in packs) in areas free from 'random terror' and do so reasonably safely and learn more about the world than any movie or solitary 'discipline' can offer. Even for a week or a month! If the reason for travel is knowledge, then the efforts in travel will always keep giving dividends.
that's my take

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:58 pm 
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punknaynowned wrote:
I recommend travel to foreign places for people after 'secondary school' --



Agreed.

I can recommend South East Asia. Living in Singapore for 4 years did me wonders... Nothing beats being stationed in a rather western society with access to many of the goods one would be at home with in England or America, or western Europe (I'm afraid I can't speak for anywhere else at this point in time) while being surrounded by countries such as Thailand, Malaysia, Vietnam, Indonesia, and a little further away, Australia.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:33 pm 
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Most high school kids don't have a fucking clue what they want to be when they grow up. The problem is, neither do most forty-year-olds.

Frank Zappa was a special case: from the time he was fifteen, he knew exactly what he wanted to do with his life. Unfortunately, his high school didn't offer any classes in how to be Frank Zappa. Once he had learned to read and write, for him school was nothing more than a glorified day care center.

From this he drew the conclusion that school is useless. And of course he was right, if you know exactly what you want to do with your life and it's not something you can learn in school.

Noone dreams of working the night shift at the box factory, but the money isn't bad. And if you have a diploma, you have a much better chance of getting that job than the job of being Frank Zappa.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:45 am 
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MentalTossFlycoon wrote:
Most high school kids don't have a fucking clue what they want to be when they grow up. The problem is, neither do most forty-year-olds.

Frank Zappa was a special case: from the time he was fifteen, he knew exactly what he wanted to do with his life. Unfortunately, his high school didn't offer any classes in how to be Frank Zappa. Once he had learned to read and write, for him school was nothing more than a glorified day care center.

From this he drew the conclusion that school is useless. And of course he was right, if you know exactly what you want to do with your life and it's not something you can learn in school.

Noone dreams of working the night shift at the box factory, but the money isn't bad. And if you have a diploma, you have a much better chance of getting that job than the job of being Frank Zappa.
Once again MentalTossFlycoon scores a dead-on bull's-eye! :D

--Bat :)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:02 am 
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Cranky_Viola wrote:
barely staying on subject...

Being pushed along through classes every day makes me sick. Sometimes I end up doing strange things just to keep myself from being miserable, like in gym class, where i rolled up a piece of paper and walked around with it sticking out from my shorts like it was a raging boner. My teacher smiled at me. Sick. :P

School isn't a bad place to keep permanently dumb people moving around and feeling like they're doing things right, and you could look at it as a necessary American opposition for smarter folks to make the better decision, and get their education elsewhere. What I hate is how the teachers connect everything to college, and talk to us like they assume that it's the necessary next step, and every one's going.
Cranky_Viola wrote:
What I hate is how the teachers connect everything to college, and talk to us like they assume that it's the necessary next step, and every one's going.
That's just better known as advertising and over-promoting the business you're in.

--Bat

P.S. If there's ever a next time for the raging boner routine don't use paper, use the real thing and see if that raises the same smile! :mrgreen:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:57 am 
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I think the most dangerous pitfall of self-study is that you tend to skip over boring or tough parts of the subject you're studying. It's very tempting to concentrate on enjoyable and interesting subjects, while skipping or glancing over the subjects that seem hard or unnecessary at first, eventually often leaving you with only partial or incomplete knowledge of a subject.

It also requires you to constantly evaluate your own progress and identify flaws in your own line of reasoning. It just helps for most people to have a teacher who can point out flaws in your thinking, who can assess your capabilities and set challenges that eventually will broaden your knowledge or skills.

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 Post subject: rebellion?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:05 am 
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Hi Crabky,

I need to pipe in here, because I am a teacher, and I also finished college late, and I work with adolescents.

Point 1, in regards to Zappa's quote about the Library and self education,..well you need to know WHAT books to read and be critical of the authors. There are a shit load of books out there and the ones to read for inquiry on a subject should be written by the people in the field who have done the time and research. Not some schmuck who thinks they can toss out a crap volume to make a few bucks off of you!

Point 2- Remember there are people who are very serious in their thinking, who have a skewed sense of reality,...for ex. that beleive the Holocost never happened. They have books and websites and all kinds of arguments. So, if you were inclined to read some of that trash, you may end up agreeing with a psycho who is out of touch with reality.

It's true that the state and the school district decided what material you should cover, but at least you are on your way to being a thinker about this. Thats really great. Trust the people who are looking after you in class, they are doing their job. There is good and bad in every field. Some are more sincere than others, and because you have the seed already planted to question things, now take it further and further and dig deeper. At your age it's erfect for the time to rebel, amd I have made an observation about students your age...that the rebeilous ones are usually the smart ones. (I don't mean the arrogant asses with behavior problems that someone above noted) BUT,.. The students with purple hair and a ring in their lip are usually the honor students or great art and/or music majors. They are doing their own thing.

The world is competetive, so compete. have something to show when your up at the plate!
:)
Self education is a responsibility, not an easy way out.


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 Post subject: Re: self education
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 1:01 am 
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Quote:
Schools can't be enough for a good education, and thinking that self-learning can be enough is ridiculous too. Giving students cheap essay writer tasks that make them think in perplexed and complicated terms is in vain. - Frank McCourt, educator



My son doesn't want to pursue a college degree, though I tried to persuade him. My dream was a military academy, but his plans are rather different from mine. I understand that it's his life and his choice, and I can't do anything with it. How can I perusade him that self-education isn't always the best option?


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 Post subject: Re: self education
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:22 am 
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There is stuff you can learn in school. It is not taught to the extent I would like, but you can find out
1 how stuff works
2 how the government works

How the internet works is not taught. It is mostly wrong. Or it gives you the answers you think are right. Because if a search disagrees with your premise, you click less clicks, and Google gets less dollars. If it is outside of politics or the arts or any of them soft sciences, I go straight to Wikipedia.


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 Post subject: Re: self education
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:42 am 
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Read books... :idea:


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 Post subject: Re: self education
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:32 am 
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http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/Education:

I heard you talking about UCLA. Did you go to college?

ZAPPA: "No. I dropped out of junior college after one semester."

So you're a self-educated man; but then, everybody's a self-educated man.

ZAPPA: "It's almost like college was invented by Madison Avenue so that after you've gone for a certain number of years and spent a certain amount of money on products which they're helping to sell to you, you'll get a piece of paper that says you're educated. That's definitely where it's at; and all you have to do is teach in one to find that out. Nobody's interested in getting an education in college – they're simply interested in getting out. That might not be true at Harvard – there may be a few freaks around at the top schools who really want to learn something. But if you go out in the provinces, like the University of Pittsburgh, forget it.'

(Quoted from Frank Kofsky interviews FZ http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/Frank_Kofsky_interviews_FZ)


"Drop out of school before your mind rots from exposure to our mediocre educational system. Forget bout the Senior Prom and go to the library and educate yourself if you’ve got any guts. Some of you like pep rallies and plastic robots who tell you what to read. Forget I mentioned it. This song has no message. Rise for the flag salute." - Frank Zappa in the liner notes of Hungry Freaks Daddy


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