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 Post subject: re: what is this shit?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 6:47 pm 
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disco boy wrote:
...Frank definitely wasn't sexist or homophobic...

...my g/f can't stand his lyrics and gets super pissed off whenever I even consider playing his music...


don't fool yerself girl; all males & females are sexist.... human nature at it's partisan best

zappa was a either a complete sexist or he worked hard at cultivating that image; he leaned on the technique to increase his exposure & maybe sell a few more records...and he didn't come off like he was desperate to keep topping himself with more 'n more outrageous shit

dude, you're a glutton for punishment, ya gotta find someone who likes zappa or at the very least zappa-neutral....keep those cd's under lock & key

freddie wrote:
I would agree for the most part.  But I have a hard time seeing it in Jumbo Go Away, because of the violent reaction. Doesn't seem justified for someone who is annoying and fat....


from a [sexist] male perspective, big leg emma was nastier than jumbo because she was his steady date & he dumped her, whereas jumbo was only denny's groupie...the black eye kinda crosses the line, but hey so long as it doesn't cause a murder

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Last edited by slime.oofytv.set on Sun Aug 27, 2006 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What is this shit?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:01 am 
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I think a huge amount of sexist men are drawn to Franks music. They love those dirty lyrics.<br>If there is one thing that pisses me off about being into Zappa it is sharing my love for him with these assholes.<br><br>Most people are too thick to get it and understand what Frank was about and how he saw the world.<br>A big part of me feels uneasy with some of those songs I wouldn't dream of playing them to my girlfriend. Frank did not hold back but that was just Frank. In the long term I think Frank will always be misunderstood and this is the biggest threat to his legacy.<br><br>Frank was way too intelligent to be a sexist, racist what-ever-ist but the majority unfortunately can't see past the dirty lyric. I think that says more about them than Frank.


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 Post subject: Re: What is this shit?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:53 am 
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[quote author=Disco Boy link=board=quotes;num=1105786629;start=15#24 date=01/18/05 at 19:53:57]<br>You know, I think this thread needs a female perspective. Where's dove grey or ZF...?<br><br><br><br>[/quote]<br><br>What about me?  What am I, chopped liver?  I could post some more, but I don't have the time.  I'm too busy trying to make a living in the female ghetto.

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 Post subject: Re: What is this shit?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:51 am 
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Since this is now the sexist thread, I thought it might help to see if everybody is using the same definition of the word. <br><br>Dictionary.com sez:<br><br>Sexism--<br>Discrimination based on gender, especially discrimination against women. <br>Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender.<br>Discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of the opposite sex<br><br>Sounds like it was written by a woman. ;)<br><br>[hr]<br><br>Ammendment:<br>Have any other Americans noticed that Women's Liberation has spawned generations of girls who happily say "Oh, God, I can't cook at all!" Generations of princesses who won't cook or do anything around the house, using the trump card "Why should I have to do that? Because I'm a woman?!" Now, mind you, these girls haven't taken on any new tasks to replace the old ones, they just quit doing the old ones because they have the "sexism" card to use. As if being useless is now added to their list of "cute little quirks." I think it's specifically an American thing. Anybody else see or deal with that?<br><br>End of observation. Let the arrows fly. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: What is this shit?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 5:26 am 
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[quote author=Ronnys Noomies link=board=quotes;num=1105786629;start=30#35 date=01/19/05 at 06:45:45]I'm always entertained by how far guys will go to avoid the lable of sexist. I'm also interested in idol worship, and how it can lead otherwise perceptive and honest people to defend obvious problems with their idols. Here we have shockingly obvious lyrics that degrade and objectify women, in the service of art and commerce. SHOCKINGLY OBVIOUS! Yet, so many folks are hell bent to describe them in any way but sexist. We have the FRANK WAS AN ANTROPOLOGIST theory, the FRANK SKEWERED MEN AS MUCH AS WOMEN theory, the FRANK WAS SPEAKING THROUGH CHARACTERS theory, the FRANK DIDN'T ACTUALLY EVER SAY THAT WOMEN ARE LESS THAN MEN SO IT'S OK theory, the FRANK JUST WASN'T SEXIST GODDAMNIT theory, and on and on and on. Why is it so hard to call it what it is? Frank was not exempt from the indoctrination all men (and probably most women) get from day one about sex roles. We've all be raised in cultures than devalue women, place men in positions of power significantly more than women, and treat women as sex objects. Frank was a fairly conservative guy in some ways, due partly to this same culture. He was indeed brutally honest, so at least he was upfront about it, and it always rang hollow to me when he'd say he was an "equal opportunity" trasher of human beings. Equal opportunity is not responding to the criticism of Jewish Princess with Catholic Girls!<br><br>The most compelling idol I have left in the world is FZ, and his music just takes me to great places, which I'm sure is true for all of us here. But that doesn't mean he's perfect, or that he wasn't human. There's nothing unusual about an artist having flaws, history is full of examples.[/quote]<br><br>very well said doc

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 Post subject: Re: What is this shit?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:01 am 
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IMO, just because Frank's lyrics weren't exactly favorable to women doesn't make him a sexist.  So long as he thought men and women should have the same rights, I wouldn't consider FZ a sexist.

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 Post subject: Re: What is this shit?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:24 am 
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[quote author=Ronnys Noomies link=board=quotes;num=1105786629;start=30#35 date=01/19/05 at 06:45:45]I'm always entertained by how far guys will go to avoid the lable of sexist. I'm also interested in idol worship, and how it can lead otherwise perceptive and honest people to defend obvious problems with their idols. Here we have shockingly obvious lyrics that degrade and objectify women, in the service of art and commerce. SHOCKINGLY OBVIOUS! Yet, so many folks are hell bent to describe them in any way but sexist. We have the FRANK WAS AN ANTROPOLOGIST theory, the FRANK SKEWERED MEN AS MUCH AS WOMEN theory, the FRANK WAS SPEAKING THROUGH CHARACTERS theory, the FRANK DIDN'T ACTUALLY EVER SAY THAT WOMEN ARE LESS THAN MEN SO IT'S OK theory, the FRANK JUST WASN'T SEXIST GODDAMNIT theory, and on and on and on. Why is it so hard to call it what it is? Frank was not exempt from the indoctrination all men (and probably most women) get from day one about sex roles. We've all be raised in cultures than devalue women, place men in positions of power significantly more than women, and treat women as sex objects. Frank was a fairly conservative guy in some ways, due partly to this same culture. He was indeed brutally honest, so at least he was upfront about it, and it always rang hollow to me when he'd say he was an "equal opportunity" trasher of human beings. Equal opportunity is not responding to the criticism of Jewish Princess with Catholic Girls!<br><br>The most compelling idol I have left in the world is FZ, and his music just takes me to great places, which I'm sure is true for all of us here. But that doesn't mean he's perfect, or that he wasn't human. There's nothing unusual about an artist having flaws, history is full of examples.[/quote]<br><br>So if I see a slut in a club and write a story based on what I saw = the facts as ugly as they are then I would be a sexist?<br><br>I just don't understand your logic Ronny. Sure Frank was far from perfect but I do not see any evidence that Frank thought men were a higher form than women and writing lyrics or documentaries about what people get up to should make him a sexist. Don't shoot the messenger.<br><br>In a 100 years time or more you can look at zappa's work and get a wonderful collage of 20th century America life worts n all package with stunning brilliant music.<br><br>I accept the majority will take offense to zappa lyrics but as I said before I think that says more about the listener than the writer.<br>


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 Post subject: Re: What is this shit?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:24 am 
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[quote author=Ronnys Noomies link=board=quotes;num=1105786629;start=30#35 date=01/19/05 at 06:45:45]The most compelling idol I have left in the world is FZ, and his music just takes me to great places, which I'm sure is true for all of us here. But that doesn't mean he's perfect, or that he wasn't human. There's nothing unusual about an artist having flaws, history is full of examples.[/quote]<br><br>Too true.<br>

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 Post subject: Re: What is this shit?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:37 pm 
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[quote author=Lumpy Gravy link=board=quotes;num=1105786629;start=30#43 date=01/19/05 at 18:16:25]<br><br><br>OK, Doctor Noomies, now you've destroyed my image of Frank Zappa. Totally. <br>I don't have anyone left to believe in now. <br> <br>I mean: <br>John Lennon? He let a woman (and a Japanese woman at that), break up the Beatles. <br>Bob Dylan? He got religious. Say no more.<br>And, now, Frank Zappa. He was a sexist.<br><br>I can't take it anymore. Happy?<br>Might as well go jump in the river.<br>It's either that or live on *SPAM* for the rest of my life.[/quote]<br>Just start listening and idolising Beefheart... :D


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 Post subject: re: what's this shite
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 5:43 pm 
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underwoods son wrote:
...FZ was not sexist or homophobic


he might not have been homophobic; he coulda been a poster child for sexist male chauvanist peccaries

np: sexual harassement in the workplace

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