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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:51 pm 
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Aybe Sea wrote:

Grachan Moncur III had a great record in 1963, called "Evolution", you dig it?
Yeah, that's a nice one. I also dig the other stuff he did with Jackie McLean around the same time... 'Destination Out', 'One Step Beyond'.. very fine records.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:21 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 5:01 pm 
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Sax hasn't changed in years.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:53 pm 
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polydigm wrote:
Batchain1001 wrote:
polydigm wrote:
Aybe Sea wrote:
polydigm wrote:
Aybe Sea wrote:
... the Archie Shepp collab on YCDTOSA4 ...

Am I the only one who thinks his sax is out of tune with the band in that solo? I can't handle it.
... but is it merely atonal, or is it even more egregiously off-key even if you are generally ok with free-jazz kind of stuff?

Atonal or off-key wouldn't necessarily bother me, I meant out of tune literally as in any given note being fractionally off the correct frequency.
That's a question I've had about saxes for a long, long time: Has the structure of the sax changed over the years? Not that any of the older ones are out-of-tune, per se, but has the sax's tonality been changed to give a cleaner sound with more of the fundamental being sounded rather than louder "buzzing" and wilder harmonics heard? Listen to the differences between Archie Shepp's sax and Bobby Martin's sax on that YCDTOSA Vol. VI.
It's some kind of sonic quality I've noticed about saxes of recent manufacture and those made in the '50s, '60s & '70s.
That's one thing I noticed about the extended sax solo on Hot Rat's CD version of "The Gumbo Variations". The added sax seems to be from a more recently made sax than the one originally played by Ian Underwood.

It's nothing to do with that, it's quite simply out of tune.
Well, Shepps sax was obviously old and so was Shepp who had a hard time playing it -- but I like it still!

--Bat

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:13 pm 
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Batchain1001 wrote:
polydigm wrote:
Aybe Sea wrote:
... the Archie Shepp collab on YCDTOSA4 ...

Am I the only one who thinks his sax is out of tune with the band in that solo? I can't handle it.
Well, Shepps sax was obviously old and so was Shepp who had a hard time playing it -- but I like it still!

That's what bugs me about this track, I do think it's a great solo, it's only the out of tune thing that spoils it.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:14 pm 
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Batchain1001 wrote:
That's a question I've had about saxes for a long, long time: Has the structure of the sax changed over the years? Not that any of the older ones are out-of-tune, per se, but has the sax's tonality been changed to give a cleaner sound with more of the fundamental being sounded rather than louder "buzzing" and wilder harmonics heard? Listen to the differences between Archie Shepp's sax and Bobby Martin's sax on that YCDTOSA Vol. VI.
It's some kind of sonic quality I've noticed about saxes of recent manufacture and those made in the '50s, '60s & '70s.


Don't know about tenor saxes, but soprano sax apparently indeed sounded way different in the old days. Sidney Bechet's soprano sounded pretty close to clarinet. After Bechet died in 1959, Coltrane appeared with "My Favorite Things", with a vastly different soprano saxophone sound. Apparently Coltrane wanted a more oboe like sound for his soprano, he had a soprano custom-built for him accordingly. "My Favorite Things" became a big hit, and thus Coltrane became pretty much responsible for not only the popularity of soprano sax itself, but also the new model thereof.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:31 pm 
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20 Small Cigars is the closest zappa came to pure jazz.


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 Post subject: Re: FRANK ZAPPA AND JAZZ
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:16 pm 
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Studebaker wrote:
The Mothers play the 'head' or main melody and after that it's a free-for-all improvisation-fest,.


Actually Stude All my friends who are serious horn players refer to that is the "tag line"..for what it's worth anyway.


just my 2 cents

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:20 pm 
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massagio wrote:
20 Small Cigars is the closest zappa came to pure jazz.


elaborate, please.

edit: come to think of it; forget it.

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 Post subject: Re: FRANK ZAPPA AND JAZZ
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:56 am 
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Huck_Phlem wrote:
Studebaker wrote:
The Mothers play the 'head' or main melody and after that it's a free-for-all improvisation-fest,.


Actually Stude All my friends who are serious horn players refer to that is the "tag line"..for what it's worth anyway.


just my 2 cents


In jazz, the main melody is definitely referred to as the 'head'.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:49 pm 
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massagio wrote:
20 Small Cigars is the closest zappa came to pure jazz.


you may be right, and I'm new arond here and don't want to start a fight but that statement is indicative of what is wrong with Music Labels.

And thank god Frank didn't write from labels.

Maybe you would like to explain why 20 small cigars is close to pure jazz but King Kong, or Ian Underwood whipping it out isn't?

I love this discussion and I don't want to end it, but I just remembered that the post started with a flawed if well intentioned question.

massagio, you asked
Quote:
who invented Jazz/Rock Fusion?? Was it FZ or M. Davis or..............?? Please give me an answer if you know. Then i dont need to read so much!


when I think you might do better to ask, What influences did both Miles Davis and Frank Zappa have on Jazz Fusion?

when I heard Frank in the 70's I thought he was fusing together a number of different musical styles, mainly blues, doo-wop, acid-rock, with genorous helpings of avant garde jazz, classical,

and when did he start, with Freak Out.

Frank was Fusion before Fusion was cool...

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:53 am 
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About ten years ago I went for an audition for the Sydney Conservatorium of Music
The course was Jazz Studies Diploma, and I'd rehearsed an arrangement of 'Oh No'
It was a duet with me on xylophone and a friend on drums
(He'd taken the time to rehearse the piece and come to the Con for the audition)

When we arrived for the audition, the Head of Jazz Studies (some American guy) wouldn't let the drummer in,
and told me that I couldn't play the Zappa piece...

he said; "You can't play Zappa...that's not Jazz!"

Needless to say....I didn't bother with the Jazz Studies Course
I realised later I would've had a better response if I'd gone for the Orchestral Percussion Course
It's interesting that the classical dudes are more amenable to new ideas than the jazz guys,
who really are stuck in a rut....only allowing pre 1965 'Jazz standards'

In my opinion, Frank wrote at least a couple of dozen pieces of the 'Jazz standard' calibre

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:15 am 
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polydigm wrote:
Aybe Sea wrote:
... the Archie Shepp collab on YCDTOSA4 ...

Am I the only one who thinks his sax is out of tune with the band in that solo? I can't handle it.


I can't handle it either...it's at least a quarter-tone out all the way through

I just figure Frank must've been a big fan of Archie to put that on the album

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 Post subject: re: fz & jazz
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:50 pm 
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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:40 pm 
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mutronboy wrote:
polydigm wrote:
Aybe Sea wrote:
... the Archie Shepp collab on YCDTOSA4 ...

Am I the only one who thinks his sax is out of tune with the band in that solo? I can't handle it.

I can't handle it either...it's at least a quarter-tone out all the way through ... I just figure Frank must've been a big fan of Archie to put that on the album

It's not just me then? I can't do absolute pitch but I'm pretty good at relative pitch and seem to be really sensitive to tuning. Bands I've been in before found me a bit of a pain in the ass with my insistence on getting the tuning right. I can't help it if I find it physically jarring in my head.

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 Post subject: re: fz & jazz
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:26 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: FRANK ZAPPA AND JAZZ
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:34 am 
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Alien Orifice sounds like jazz to me, at least in the way that a lot of Mingus' longer compositions are considered to be jazz.

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 Post subject: Re: FRANK ZAPPA AND JAZZ
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:18 pm 
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there's a definite connection between Zappa and jazz... you could argue that jazz is an extension or an evolution, harmonically, melodically, rhythmically etc of rhythm & blues... and I'd say that much of Zappa's music is also 'extended & evolved rhythm & blues'... I don't think he was necessarily 'into jazz', so much as he was exploring similar territory...

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 Post subject: On the Archie Shepp solo
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:34 am 
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polydigm wrote:
Aybe Sea wrote:

... the Archie Shepp collab on YCDTOSA4 ...

Am I the only one who thinks his sax is out of tune with the band in that solo? I can't handle it.

I can see what you mean. But I kinda like the effect. It makes it very 'vulnorable'. The way I listen to it is almost the same as certain tracks on Burnt Weeny Sandwich. I've heard, but unfortunately I cannot recall via which source, that FZ deliberately made sure that the sax was a bit oput of tune with the rest of the instruments. So, in my opinion it might have been a deliberate choice when playing with Archie Shepp as well (?).


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 Post subject: Re: FRANK ZAPPA AND JAZZ
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:31 pm 
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SteveD wrote:
there's a definite connection between Zappa and jazz... you could argue that jazz is an extension or an evolution, harmonically, melodically, rhythmically etc of rhythm & blues... and I'd say that much of Zappa's music is also 'extended & evolved rhythm & blues'... I don't think he was necessarily 'into jazz', so much as he was exploring similar territory...
Interesting point. I have to agree. Zappa's "jazz" was definitely not following the same rules of mainstream jazz. I think it was a combination of adopting sounds and phrases from mainstream jazz that he liked and making his own rules.

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 Post subject: Re: FRANK ZAPPA AND JAZZ
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 1:00 pm 
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polydigm wrote:
SteveD wrote:
there's a definite connection between Zappa and jazz... you could argue that jazz is an extension or an evolution, harmonically, melodically, rhythmically etc of rhythm & blues... and I'd say that much of Zappa's music is also 'extended & evolved rhythm & blues'... I don't think he was necessarily 'into jazz', so much as he was exploring similar territory...
Interesting point. I have to agree. Zappa's "jazz" was definitely not following the same rules of mainstream jazz. I think it was a combination of adopting sounds and phrases from mainstream jazz that he liked and making his own rules.



It must be. Jazz bores me, but I can listen to Zappa all day.


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 Post subject: Re: FRANK ZAPPA AND JAZZ
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 1:32 pm 
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calvin2hikers wrote:
Jazz bores me, but I can listen to Zappa all day.
Have you heard Eric Dolphy's Out To Lunch album?

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 Post subject: Re: FRANK ZAPPA AND JAZZ
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:13 pm 
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polydigm wrote:
calvin2hikers wrote:
Jazz bores me, but I can listen to Zappa all day.
Have you heard Eric Dolphy's Out To Lunch album?


No, and I don't want to. So there.


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 Post subject: Re: FRANK ZAPPA AND JAZZ
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:31 pm 
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calvin2hikers wrote:
polydigm wrote:
calvin2hikers wrote:
Jazz bores me, but I can listen to Zappa all day.
Have you heard Eric Dolphy's Out To Lunch album?
No, and I don't want to. So there.
It's worth it just for the conceptual continuity of the last track on that album being the obvious inspiration for The Eric Dolphy Memorial Barbecue. And otherwise it's not typical jazz. I'm no jazz buff, but I like this one.

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 Post subject: Re: FRANK ZAPPA AND JAZZ
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:31 am 
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The lengths some people go to pretend that FZ's music and 'Jazz' are unrelated always bemuses me.
FZ's music and 'Jazz' have so much in common-improvisation on standards (the standards in FZ's case being his own 'standards'), FZ's ability to push that improvisational envelope and keep the music evolving, the instrumentation involved etc etc
Just 'cause FZ's improv didn't have a basis in bebop and those 'rules'.
What sets FZ's music slightly apart, for me at least, is the inclusion of 'songs' ie tunes with words, in and amongst the instrumentals. This makes it a lot easier to listen to FZ for extended periods, whereas with 'Jazz' I end up craving some vocal levity. And, to be honest, FZ's music is easier to follow. His solos tend to be more melodic.

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