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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:21 am 
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jimmie d killed the forum wrote:
HJ wrote:
she would of course not allow anyone to make the composition free for donwloading by the world. That is essentially the same as giving up the copyright.

BFD.....it's not even Frank's version.

That doesn't matter. (And I don't know what BFD means.)

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:43 am 
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Maybe I shouldn't jump in here but I know what BFD means: Big Fucking Deal!

I'm not saying that I agree with either you or the person you're debating with- but I felt it my duty to elucidate the meaning of that notation.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:57 am 
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HJ wrote:
jimmie d killed the forum wrote:
HJ wrote:
she would of course not allow anyone to make the composition free for donwloading by the world. That is essentially the same as giving up the copyright.

BFD.....it's not even Frank's version.

That doesn't matter. (And I don't know what BFD means.)

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:00 am 
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MeaSaurus wrote:
Maybe I shouldn't jump in here but I know what BFD means: Big Fucking Deal!

I'm not saying that I agree with either you or the person you're debating with- but I felt it my duty to elucidate the meaning of that notation.

Oh - I always thought that it stood for Beer For Dolphins. :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:01 am 
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HJ wrote:
As for the three-line quote in a book, my guess is that if due copyright notice is provided, such a snippet would constitute fair use.

Unless the ZFT lawyers can prove that publishing these three lines can harm the commercial value of the song itself.
See Brad Templeton's 10 Big Myths which mentions the use by a newspaper of a 300-word excerpt from Gerald Ford's memoir ruled as not fair use.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:54 pm 
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Zappa made pronouncements designed to outrage those who could be outraged. He said as much himself. How can anyone outdo the effect Frank INTENDED by his inflammatory remarks in context than their effect as excerpts?

Let me present my previously mentioned quote as found in my book "Mea Saurus":

Quote:
The Mothers were altogether wild, and lucky for me, Zappa turned out to be an artistic genius. I never heard music like Zappa before and I never saw guys who looked like the Mothers. I was super-inspired by the whole phenomenon. I looked at their freaked out image and said to myself, “That’s for me.” At that early age, I didn’t even know that guys could grow hair as long as women, but, especially after seeing the group picture of the Mothers on the cover of the 1969 album Mothermania, I was determined to grow my hair long too, and nobody was going to stop me. On that compilation album was the original second refrain in the song “Mother People” that the record company Verve had deleted on the original album, Absolutely Free. The lines in question went:

Better look around before you say you don’t care,
Shut your fucking mouth about the length of my hair!
How would you survive, if you were alive? - Shitty little person! [17]

It was the first time I had heard curse words on a record. Immediately, Zappa’s message became a sort of theme or anthem for me. I had to have long hair and had to tell society, “Fuck you!” The same word that I had never heard as a child and offended me so much when I entered junior high school, this exciting word “fuck” was now my word, by far the most important word in the English language, and I wanted to tell everybody!


That is exactly how my excerpt is used. (Note the [17]. That refers to the reference section in the back of the book where Zappa is given specific credit: “Mother People,” Mothermania, Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Invention, Verve Records, 1969.

As you can see, it would be pretty hard for me to delete the Zappa quote and still be able to tell the history of my teenaged years. Zappa's statement has anger built in. I didn't invent it. I don't know who Frank was directing his wrath at by telling them to shut their fucking mouth, but I neither added anything specific to his quote nor misdirected the reader about its meaning. Frank said it and I loved it- that's all. When I had long hair back then and the "other" people gave me that disdainful "look," those words reverberated in my mind. That's why I never forgot them.
[/quote]


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 Post subject: And Another Thing
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:36 pm 
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I'm really in a tough spot right now because of this situation. I don't know what to do. As of last week I got my proofs back from the publisher with this cover letter:

Quote:
)
December 20, 2007

Dear Mr. Mehling:

Enclosed you will find a complete and final set of page proofs for your book, "Mea Saurus." We have made the corrections you requested and hope the proofs now meet with your approval.

Once you have reviewed that the previous changes were corrected, please initial your approval on the first and last pages where indicated and return the proofs to us by January 3, 2008. We will then begin preparing the text of the book for the printer. No further changes can be made once the book is printed.

If you have any further changes, a fee of $100.00 plus $10.00 for each change or each line of type affected by any change will be assessed. We will then send a confirming set of proofs, which means that we send you only the pages that had corrections.

Once books are printed, it will be impossible to make any corrections or changes at all, regardless of additional charges.


Then I got the following grim news from the Fireparty Beefheart group that I also belong to:

Quote:
Check out killuglyradio.com for the Zappa's cease & desist letter to
the fan site!

According to The Idiot Bastard, lawyers for the Zappa family have had a
very busy December. Threats and warnings have been issued to many more fans and followers of Frank Zappa. Even a statue erected in Germany to honor FZ may not be safe.

http://www.idiotbastard.com/news.htm


I checked out the Idiot Bastard site and Kill Ugly Radio. I got so depressed after reading all the problems Zappa fans are having these days that I started deleting Zappa quotes from the original manuscript of my book in Word, yet still trying to tell my story somehow. It's almost impossible- but I'm working on it.

I don't know if I should omit Zappa from my book at my expense. It's going to delay my book's publication and cost me hundreds more dollars. Maybe I should publish anyhow and join the fight against them. It is really turning the memory of Frank Zappa very bitter for me. I know this is not Frank's fault, but it still sucks. I thought that my lonely existence was a mistake but this kinda thing makes me glad I don't have a wife and kids.

It makes me mad. Maybe you should just fuck 'em. Don't marry 'em. That way you can bequeath your shit to the whole world and no woman can sink her claws into your work when your gone. Like Vincent van Gogh, Frank Zappa belongs to the world for everyone to know about. One Japanese collector bought a "Sunflowers" by van Gogh for $40 million and then locked it up in a safe. No one has seen it since. That's disgraceful. It's the same locking up Zappa for the love of money. They're not safeguarding Frank's intellectual property, they're locking whatever is left of the man in a legal prison

Free Frank Zappa! Free Frank Zappa!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:13 pm 
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^^^^ Aaah, don't let your view of wimmen be tarnished by a few loonys. There's lots of really nice ones out there.

jimmie d killed the forum wrote:
According to an interview I heard Gail give on Air America Radio a few years ago, it helps if people ask nicely. Of course, she may have just been kidding.

8)

My observations have led me to conclude that those who don't ask nicely are served papers while those who ask nicely are merely ignored. ::shrug::


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:43 am 
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Another point. If something legal should happen, it is your publisher that will be hit. They have the obligation (as they are publishers, and therefore (no pun intended) publish the stuff into the public) to check that the contents are not breaking any laws. They are those responsible for releasing the things.

So I would not change the proofs if I was you.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:28 am 
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On the page where my book has its Library of Congress #, above my own copyright, the publisher posts this disclaimer:


The contents of this work including, but not limited to, the accuracy of events, people, and places depicted; opinions expressed; permission to use previously published materials included; and any advice given or actions advocated are solely the responsibility of the author, who assumes all liability for said work and indemnifies the publisher against any claims stemming from publication of the work.

All Rights Reserved
Copyright © 2008 by Robert R. Mehling
No part of this book may be reproduced or transmitted
in any form or by any means, electronic or mechanical,
including photocopying, recording, or by any information
storage and retrieval system without permission in
writing from the author.
--------------------------------------------------
It sounds to me as if my publisher knows the law better than me. I'm considering paraphrasing Frank Zappa, or using very condensed snippets of quotes now and paying my publisher to change it. Only Frank Zappa. Quotes from Humphrey Bogart, Captain Beefheart, Paul Kantner, Aleister Crowley, Edgar Allen Poe, and Howlin Wolf can remain as printed. I only fear Gail because she's gone lawsuit crazy.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:22 am 
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Have you written Gail or her lawyers yet? Best move, if you had time to spare, would be to send an official registered mail to her (You're gonna hafta sign fer this, buddy). If she got the mail and don't answer in 30 days, at least you would have means to show that she didn't respond in a reasonable time, and that would count on your favour, before court: you tried to get the due permission... In any case, I think it is pretty obvious that it consists FAIR USE. How can you report your story w/o recurring to the lyrics... (although I am no lawyer and know shit about copyright law). It would be pathetic to prevent someone to use a couple of verses with such clear goals...


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 Post subject: Apologies
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:30 am 
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To all reading this post, let me apologize for my angry outburst a few posts back. Mea Saurus is a "confessions" and I feel I now have added a new sin to confess. So, in the spirit of Holy Family Sunday, which today is, let me ask for forgiveness, not only from Gail and her family, but from all persons of the female gender. Living without a woman as long as I have recently causes me to sometimes blame "them" for my misery, but it is my choice and not their fault. (Peccave.)

So please, let me retract my stupid statements. Anger and frustration can cause one to make statements one doesn't mean.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:41 am 
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Did the ZFT payed any royalities to the John Coltrane Family Trust for the Equinox musical quotation during the sax solo in the new Wazoo release (Think It Over)? No. So, imo it is fair enough to use a couple of lyrical lines in your book...


Last edited by Mr Clean on Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:45 am 
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HJ wrote:
If something legal should happen, it is your publisher that will be hit. They have the obligation (as they are publishers, and therefore (no pun intended) publish the stuff into the public) to check that the contents are not breaking any laws. They are those responsible for releasing the things.

Mr Clean wrote:
In any case, I think it is pretty obvious that it consists FAIR USE. How can you report your story w/o recurring to the lyrics... (although I am no lawyer and know shit about copyright law).

Mr Clean wrote:
imo it is fair enough to use a couple of lyrical lines in your book...

Dear Mr Clean & HJ, your thoughts are really interesting, however as you are mentionning, we are neither legal advisors nor lawyers.
I would be very sorry to learn that our friend MeaSaurus got into trouble involving his responsibility based on forum users opinions.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:47 am 
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MeaSaurus wrote:
On the page where my book has its Library of Congress #, above my own copyright, the publisher posts this disclaimer:


The contents of this work including, but not limited to, the accuracy of events, people, and places depicted; opinions expressed; permission to use previously published materials included; and any advice given or actions advocated are solely the responsibility of the author, who assumes all liability for said work and indemnifies the publisher against any claims stemming from publication of the work.

All Rights Reserved
Copyright © 2008 by Robert R. Mehling
No part of this book may be reproduced or transmitted
in any form or by any means, electronic or mechanical,
including photocopying, recording, or by any information
storage and retrieval system without permission in
writing from the author.
--------------------------------------------------
It sounds to me as if my publisher knows the law better than me. I'm considering paraphrasing Frank Zappa, or using very condensed snippets of quotes now and paying my publisher to change it. Only Frank Zappa. Quotes from Humphrey Bogart, Captain Beefheart, Paul Kantner, Aleister Crowley, Edgar Allen Poe, and Howlin Wolf can remain as printed. I only fear Gail because she's gone lawsuit crazy.


I guess this differs from publisher to publisher. But note that this copyright statement gives YOU control. So anyone wanting to quote you text, will need written permission from you. So the law works in symmetric ways - it does not distinguish between famous and non-famous people. Kinda nice imo.

In any case, go ahead and publish. And best of luck with the book!

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:52 am 
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HJ wrote:
In any case, go ahead and publish.

Seems HJ will cut his balls off if anything happens.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:53 am 
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Maroual wrote:
Dear Mr Clean & HJ, your thoughts are really interesting, however as you are mentionning, we are neither legal advisors nor lawyers.
I would be very sorry to learn that our friend MeaSaurus got into trouble involving his responsibility based on forum users opinions.


Mr Maroual. Thanks for making it explicit. Since it would indeed be a shame [and very stupid] if he acted based on someone else's opinion regardless of legal consequences...

Although I find it kind of lame that someone's essay should bother with such a minor implication thing: ie. ZFT won't sell less or more (maybe more) records because the guy printed a couple of verses in his book...

Got to meet the Gurney's and a dozen gray attorneys...


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:17 am 
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Maroual wrote:
HJ wrote:
In any case, go ahead and publish.

Seems HJ will cut his balls off if anything happens.

I guess he knows I am not offering professional legal advice here: He hasn't received any bills from me! 8)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:08 am 
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My band did a cover version of "Wonderful Wino", recorded it (live), and posted it on myspace. People seemed to like it. I've taken it off now, after reading this thread and others like it of late. Too bad - it's one of the hottest performances we'd captured on tape. Not worth it though - hell, if Zappa himself wouldn't have wanted us to perform it for fun in front of an admiring audience of people mostly ignorant to Zappa's music, and have a good time with it, then I guess we should respect that.

But didn't Jeff Simmons co-write that one? How does that work, "composers-intent-wise"?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:46 pm 
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^^^^ Well, in that case, you can put the first half of the track on your site, or just the left channel, or play it half as loud, or at half the tempo...

With Jeff's permission, of course.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:21 pm 
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feetlightup wrote:
My band did a cover version of "Wonderful Wino", recorded it (live), and posted it on myspace. People seemed to like it. I've taken it off now, after reading this thread and others like it of late. Too bad - it's one of the hottest performances we'd captured on tape. Not worth it though - hell, if Zappa himself wouldn't have wanted us to perform it for fun in front of an admiring audience of people mostly ignorant to Zappa's music, and have a good time with it, then I guess we should respect that.

Since Gail's lawyers send cease & desist letters to offenders of the Zappa music policy, you should just leave the song up until you get one....then pull it off, frame the letter and you will now have a new Zappa collectable. 8)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:03 pm 
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^^^^ You shrew! :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:42 am 
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just plain doug wrote:
feetlightup wrote:
My band did a cover version of "Wonderful Wino", recorded it (live), and posted it on myspace. People seemed to like it. I've taken it off now, after reading this thread and others like it of late. Too bad - it's one of the hottest performances we'd captured on tape. Not worth it though - hell, if Zappa himself wouldn't have wanted us to perform it for fun in front of an admiring audience of people mostly ignorant to Zappa's music, and have a good time with it, then I guess we should respect that.

Since Gail's lawyers send cease & desist letters to offenders of the Zappa music policy, you should just leave the song up until you get one....then pull it off, frame the letter and you will now have a new Zappa collectable. 8)


Saaay.... that's just plain genius! :shock: :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:56 am 
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That certainly illustrates the prinicple of "Hey, when life sends you lemons, say 'I like lemons, what else you got?'" :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:58 am 
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SwaggartDecisions wrote:
^^^^ You shrew! :lol:

Gee, thanks....I think. I hope you meant "shrewd", though. A shrew is either a small furry, mole-like animal, or an ill-tempered, bitchy woman (Last time I looked I wasn't either of them!) :shock:

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