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 Post subject: Re: Brexit factor
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:59 pm 
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the mentions on twitter about the conservatives and labour MP's demanding that Labour party chair Jeremy Corbyn step down are numerous and insistent. The political anti-Corbyn hysteria is pretty fucking loud even on the bbc. But the guy goes out to make a speech and 30,000 people just show up cheering for him. These aren't paid skynews watchers. They're people who have hope that he understands them. It's damn weird, especially now in UK history. As I understand it, Corbyn talks a lot like Bernie Sanders in the US does, but as Bernie turned -almost to the day- to say he'd vote for Clinton if it came to that in November, Corbyn never quite gave his full throated support to stay in the EU before the brexit vote. And why should Corbyn have to step down anyway? What the hell? And there's the Article 50 implementation that just hangs there in the air like some suspended elephant hanging from the most ridiculous hot air dirigible. It's all just damn weird.

and then Aussie elections are next week. It'd be nice if they could have somthin' more positive to look forwrad to.

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 Post subject: Re: Brexit factor
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:45 pm 
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I know I can be pretty hard-headed, polydigm, but if I sidestepped it wasn't intentional.

Maybe you think I'm some kind of flag-waving nationalist, proud of my country right or wrong, and my support of Brexit is all about racism and immigration. Perhaps you are of the view that global governance is the cure for mankind's ills. For me, it's not about jobs or cultural purity, it's about a very small group of people controlling the entire world. The Eurozone has always been about consolidating economic power and deriving political power from economic influence. That's what bankers do...they create money out of thin air, then loan it out, expecting more money in return. The entire system is designed to blow from time to time...this is why we always end up in a big war. The money doesn't have any true value, only designated value based on faith. It's mostly just numbers on a ledger, but Greece can't pay it back with more phony numbers, they have to pay actual cash. That can't be done, so what the solution? Another bail-out loan?

It's a ponzi scheme, and it always has been. The elite are pissed that people are figuring it out. It's scary territory for everyone. Myself, I'm so broke I'm ready to try anything new. The house of cards must fall so that a stronger structure can take it's place. Exactly what that structure would consist of is unknown, but it would be great if work paid a living again, instead of just an existence.

Brexit may have actually prevented the next big war, as the EU has always supported US meddling in the Middle East but may now back off of their support for the destruction of cultures and regimes that are not in line with Western bank control. What has support for the USA gotten the people of Europe? A bullseye for terrorists painted on their backs, and a large influx of refugees. This is by design, and beyond the control of ordinary politicians. It will not be stopped with laws, just as this vote does not assure Brexit will actually happen.

Anyway, as usual, I'm not sure what the fuck you are talking about and I'm pretty sure you don't get what I'm saying.

Yeah, it's all about me.

Sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Brexit factor
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:44 pm 
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He's sidestepping because he knows the Brexit vote was ALL about racism. His commentary in the Ron Paul thread revealed his views.


The weakening of the EU by GB voting to opt out makes them vulnerable to terrorist attacks, Russia, North Korea, China and the Middle East as well as an economic collapse. They won't invoke Article 50 because they know they fucked-up with their vote. Scotland doesn't want to leave.


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 Post subject: Re: Brexit factor
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:19 am 
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SPACEBROTHER wrote:
...the Brexit vote was ALL about racism...
Bob Englehart
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Nate Beeler
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Clay Jones
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David Fitzsimmons
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 Post subject: Re: Brexit factor
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:21 am 
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A rope leash wrote:
Anyway, as usual, I'm not sure what the fuck you are talking about and I'm pretty sure you don't get what I'm saying.
That we haven't yet been able to build social structures that aren't perverted and exploited by a handful of privileged individuals isn't proof that we can't. We seem to be equally offended by that privilege, but I believe the only way is forward - we make it work or we bust. You seem to be implying that the only way we can all be equal is to smash it all down and then we can be equally miserable. That's not for me.

I just thought your expressed view of the benefit of the Brexit win was very narrow. Isolated nations are more likely to go to war. If you've been paying attention to the issue, there are those amongst its supporters who have openly spoken of the benefits of war when harking back to a more divided world in the past and they demonised foreigners in their campaign. Does that not make them somehow reptilian? How do you know that secretly they aren't in the pockets of the super rich?

The thing that kills me about current western politics, in any western country, is that no-one asks the really big questions. They all bang on about national debt but no-one asks to whom we are in debt. Ultimately we're in debt to private individuals. How has that happened, that a small handful of private individuals has ended up holding the world to ransom? It's completely fucked up and I have little idea what to do about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Brexit factor
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:04 am 
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The path forward goes in a couple directions. As history tells me, and economists say too, there's either a debt write-off or war. If there's a debt write-off then it really matters what gets written off and by whom and for who. If that's not done right then it's probably more war. The 1% of the 1% don't want a write-off, but they all act like they want to pretend the bretton-woods agreement of 80 years ago didn't happen (when the west slid off the gold standard). They want to pretend money is something more than currency. But they also hold a premium on credit because they can't and won't do the labor. To them labour is an expenditure. To everybody else labor is a means for a livelihood. Also, the finance and credit world are nose-deep into hedges which is an aspect of our austerity mode that the west is in and whichcauses the economic slavery of countries like Greece, states like Puerto Rico, and cities all across the US. Redoing a glass-steagal type law, taxing hedge markets, and writing off school or real estate debt, might go a long way toward getting the west's economies aright again. These will take a bit to implement and get things to settle again.

Then again, climate change is already really expensive and will only get more so as some places flood and others heat up and dry out and premium land locations and their prices will change... it'll effect food production and real estate and labor...

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 Post subject: Re: Brexit factor
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:02 pm 
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I have to admit, I'm in two minds about the fragmentation thing. Hey Rope I'm not totally against your comment about the Brexit vote, I just object to black and white arguments. Victory for humans, blow to reptiles - life is more complex than that. I was impressed with Iceland's response to the banks after the global crash - they basically told them to take a hike and they're now withdrawing their application to join the EU. As a member of the EU, telling the banks to take a hike might not have gone so well.

I mean that's effectively what the super rich do every time the wheels come off - add insult to the injury of exploitation of the vast majority and tell them all to take a hike. This could be the difference between a very large number of human beings suffering various levels of privation or a small handful of human beings giving up 90% of their wealth, say and still being very well off.

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 Post subject: Re: Brexit factor
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:07 pm 
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Very nicely said.

In the 1950's, tax rates on the very wealthy were in the 90% range, in the USA, if what I've read is correct. The reasoning was as you say...they still had more than they can use. A small number of people hold a lot of wealth, but none of them seem to be Batman when it comes to helping mankind in a direct, useful fashion. I suspect there are a couple of reasons for this, the first of which is that their wealth isn't tangible, and can't really be spent...that is, they can't dispense their wealth in cash, they can only borrow against it.

Secondly...and I think this is mostly unobserved by a lot of people...wealthy people become very narcissistic and detached from the ordinary world. Check out Nigel Farages' recent speech where he basically called out all representatives in attendance for never having had a real job. They do not get it, they have no idea, and they are frightened as fuck that it might happen to them.

People raised in wealth are pathetically spoiled. There's a sociopathic element to their behaviors. The nerve of them, pulling into their gated community with their fucking Teslas and Jaguars as their yard worker's Toyota pick-up burns up on the street.

It reeks of feudalism.


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 Post subject: Re: Brexit factor
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:35 pm 
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punknaynowned wrote:
As history tells me

History: the harvesting of those lies that repeated often enough become the truth - Nick Tosches

It's fucked up before we start. The only way forward, as always, is the fight for individual integrity. There's too much already gone wrong that still needs to be balanced. Brexit or no brexit, it's not all that important if you're not afraid to look at where we are as a whole. We are in it together, like it or not. We are in trouble as a species and refusing to learn. Life is not black and white. Being for or against this issue is black and white. I don't think this issue matters in the bigger picture of endless human misery. As long as there are people who think they can get away with exploiting every other living thing in the universe, bad things will keep happening. The exploiters will continue to write our "history".

Only the less thoughtful, wealthier people I talk to view this planet's human race as not cursed, or actually capable of creating a system that works for all. I tend to think it must be because they do whatever they want everyday, avoiding most of the misery by spending their time being waited on and spending money. I'm happy for 'em but you can't be rich without someone else being poor. Can you? The more thoughtful rich have their own special guilt trips to work through. But maybe that's too painful so they instead focus on political games like Brexit.


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 Post subject: Re: Brexit factor
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:46 pm 
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help me out.
Square this
downer mydnyte wrote:
The only way forward, as always, is the fight for individual integrity.


with this:
downer mydnyte wrote:
We are in it together, like it or not.

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 Post subject: Re: Brexit factor
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:27 am 
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punknaynowned wrote:
help me out.
Square this
downer mydnyte wrote:
The only way forward, as always, is the fight for individual integrity.


with this:
downer mydnyte wrote:
We are in it together, like it or not.


I'll help you out. I'm not speaking for downer. He can make his own reply.

If more people had this:
downer mydnyte wrote:
The only way forward, as always, is the fight for individual integrity.


This wouldn't be so fucked up:
downer mydnyte wrote:
We are in it together, like it or not.


Downer can make his own reply, but that's my take.

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 Post subject: Re: Brexit factor
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:33 am 
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The most tiresome thing is the brexiters saying "you lost, stop whingeing", like its not important.
And then...
Wasn't there a referendum to join the EU? AH yes. And the same people saying "stop whingeing" now have actually been whingeing ever since that vote :roll:
TT

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 Post subject: Re: Brexit factor
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:04 am 
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It's crazy that the human race gets along at all. Seven billion shit machines all garnering for position. The rich are getting richer and the poor have always been poor, so lately it's been those in-between that have lost out. The rich have to get richer from somewhere, and that somewhere is the middle class. The public anguish over this is reflected in the Brexit vote.

It's clearly time to follow Iceland's example but it will never happen. Debt forgiveness is required at this point, a jubilee. The rent is too damn high. Deflate it to a realistic level in a sort of controlled economic crash. Our governments invest a lot in wars and armaments. They could spend a little of that bailing out the common people, who have been left holding the bag while the captains make off with all the booty.

Somehow ideas like directly bailing out the common person fall on blank rich faces. The idea of giving a commoner a break is anathema to the wealthy class, as it is in direct contrast to the every-man-for-himself principles of capitalism. After all, anyone can get rich if they understand capitalism, silly.

That the poor haven't risen up to eat them is truly remarkable. Money controls information, and therefore controls minds. Media and education time isn't cheap, and given that the rights to radio frequencies have been completely stolen from the people, it's not hard to see how the privileged class protects itself.

What would you do if you had your own radio station free of governmental control?


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 Post subject: Re: Brexit factor
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:48 am 
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Philostopher wrote:
If more people had this:
downer mydnyte wrote:
The only way forward, as always, is the fight for individual integrity.


This wouldn't be so fucked up:
downer mydnyte wrote:
We are in it together, like it or not.


Downer can make his own reply, but that's my take.


Thanks for the thoughtful reply Philostopher.
The 'fight for individual integrity' is, imo, hampered, shuttered, held at bay, squelched, squandered and despised by too many. People's will to survive or find their way, to fit in, do something worthwhile or legitimate, is constantly beaten down. What's worse is that's too often done so in the name of freedom or rights of this or that group of majority or minorities. That essential bit of how my rights or freedoms does and should not infringe on the rights and freedoms of others often gets lost, because people assume their personal integrity or rights grants them the ability to take away the integrity or rights of others. It doesn't. Slaveholders, tyrants, demagogues and those who would want to take others rights or integrity away, for their own assumption of power, do that.

The trick is, as I see it, is to be able to get peope to fight for their individual integrity within, and for themselves, for their communities, but also for the world at large. Because we are in it together. So framing downers words -that on the face are contradictory- in a way that encourages one to use the work for the self for the larger goal of having to live together, seemed a stroke of luck. And one he may not have noticed.

The process of making that work, finding the set of linkages to make all that work is an individual one. Often trial and error. Like life. Not that there isn't help along the way :)

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 Post subject: Re: Brexit factor
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:08 am 
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http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-07-0 ... -one-chart


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 Post subject: Re: Brexit factor
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:58 am 
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A rope leash wrote:
...


I used to read zerohedge. Then they changed. Now I don't since they've seemingly become another online marshaller of click-bait. I don' t read 'em, because I don't trust 'em.
Instead, I read nakedcapitalism because they look at actual solutions rather than just getting people to want to start fingering their pitchforks.

Here's one explaining that the Brexit will basically be impossible to implement.
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/07/brexit-huge-spanner-in-the-works-negotiation-of-new-uk-trade-deals-verboten-till-exit-complete.html

A look at politics: http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/06/brexit-why-the-uk-is-unlikely-to-have-a-general-election-soon.html

Or here, analysis looking at how Parliament might (and might not be able to) work toward Article 50:
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/06/does-invoking-article-50-require-the-approval-of-parliament.html

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 Post subject: Re: Brexit factor
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 5:27 am 
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Cameron - you're history, you're gone.

Boris - you're over, you're through.

Farage - you're vapor, you're baloney without the mayo, Buddy, you're outta here.

TT

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 Post subject: Re: Brexit factor
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:01 am 
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Philostopher wrote:
punknaynowned wrote:
help me out.
Square this
downer mydnyte wrote:
The only way forward, as always, is the fight for individual integrity.


with this:
downer mydnyte wrote:
We are in it together, like it or not.


I'll help you out. I'm not speaking for downer. He can make his own reply.

If more people had this:
downer mydnyte wrote:
The only way forward, as always, is the fight for individual integrity.


This wouldn't be so fucked up:
downer mydnyte wrote:
We are in it together, like it or not.


Downer can make his own reply, but that's my take.



Not the first evidence of dm's hypocrisy.


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 Post subject: Re: Brexit factor
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:28 am 
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What is politically amazing is that the politicians who supported Brexit or were responsible for it are now dropping like flies as it becomes clear that they had no actual plan what to do if their POV won through.
I'm personally sorted. I've (at last) found all the bits of paper I need to become German, some of them pretty obscure, IMO. It costs 255 Euros.

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 Post subject: Re: Brexit factor
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 9:06 am 
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Caputh wrote:
I've (at last) found all the bits of paper I need to become German, some of them pretty obscure, IMO. It costs 255 Euros.


You'll have a nice time with the AFD and the nuts from the Green party.

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 Post subject: Re: Brexit factor
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 9:08 am 
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SPACEBROTHER wrote:
Not the first evidence of dm's hypocrisy.


So quick to criticize people, that you aren't even paying attention.

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 Post subject: Re: Brexit factor
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:35 am 
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My_Name_Is_Fritz wrote:
Caputh wrote:
I've (at last) found all the bits of paper I need to become German, some of them pretty obscure, IMO. It costs 255 Euros.


You'll have a nice time with the AFD and the nuts from the Green party.


Since I live in Germany already, I've got kind of used to them. And at least they haven't got 'round to posting stuff like this through people's letterboxes, at least not since 1945...
Image

Plus, I don't fancy being "repatriated".

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 Post subject: Re: Brexit factor
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:43 am 
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We're all hypocrites. Spacebrother is not man enough to accept that. You don't need "evidence" because I admit it.

However, nothing I posted on this thread makes me a hypocrite. Brexit is just another ripple in the lake. Another thing to point at and bitch about. Last month it was something else. Next month it will be some new disaster. What did these assholes expect? Fairness? Justice? Economic equality? Utopia? What fools.

SB doesn't want peace or "justice". That much is clear. SB can't even get through a day without war on a Zappa forum, yet he's got life all figured out. He can't even stop calling people names. He needs politics like a vampire needs blood.

War all the time. That is the SB way. SB and his partners in crime on the Zappa forum. They will make America great again, even if they have to kill all of us to do it.

And I voted for Obama (in 2008. left it blank in 2012)

Brexit is not touching me. Sorry. I've seen the poor get fucked everyday of their life. What difference does this make? We're already fucked. Go ahead and Brexit. Or not. I don't give a shit. For/against = black/white. It's all gray/grey to me.

The only real currency is the currency of the spirit.


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 Post subject: Re: Brexit factor
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 12:30 pm 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
Brexit is not touching me.


I'm very happy for you. It does me.

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 Post subject: Re: Brexit factor
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 1:54 pm 
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Your cash ain't nothin' but trash.


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