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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:22 pm 
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DM I refuse to respond to ad hominems in a debate. Do you have anything else to offer besides offending my intelligence and my capability of getting oversight? You seem to be so close to the grindstone you can't see its shape, only grooves and indentations.

All I've seen you and Galoot do is prove all my points. All of them. If I'm wrong, then prove me wrong - instead you call me names and try to make me feel small, which both proves me right on my opinion of you and is incredibly disruptive and annoying.

I'll end any form of conversation in this thread with you two here. I have better stuff to do with my time than to waste it on people who only want to call me names.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 3:32 pm 
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It seems I missed this thread. Listening to much music obviously. As a German I could tell a lot of stories of my Grandpa, my Mom told me. I was obsessed with German history and my Grandpa's story. It's a pity, that's too late now to tell more.

He drove Panzers. The last one was a Sturmgeschütz IV, which was hit by a Russian grenade in november 1944. In late 1944 his disbanded armored Wehrmacht division was drafted by the Waffen SS. No chance to refuse to join this club. My Mom is still unhappy, since the only photo she's got from her Dad is a picture in this ugly uniform. It's in a drawer somewhere.

I'm still trying to explore his way through war. I asked my Mom and my Grandma a thousands of times. And I'm happy he was a normal German guy and not a Nazi. It didn't help in the end. He burnt in this fucking Panzer.

Hard to understand for the winners. I know. Not an excuse at all.

Back to this thread. I think BBP is right. It was not necessary to throw these bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The US government knew Japan was down and wanted to capitulate. Latest state of the art.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 3:52 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 4:13 pm 
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My_Name_Is_Fritz wrote:
It was not necessary to throw these bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

It never occurred to me whether it was necessary or not. All I ever thought about it was it's extremely unfortunate (wrong) to be reduced to dropping bombs on children. I'd rather die than drop an atom bomb on a city.

There is no American way of looking at things. There is television and there is physical reality. In physical reality, the only actual reality, there are as many American ways of looking at things as their are people. America is a matter of geography. There is no agreed upon mindset among it's inhabitants. People who reside in America are from all over the world. Melting pot, right? When BBP misunderstands me it's as if she's reading my post and assuming I fit into some dumb American mold that she can identify. But many "Americans" are not that easy to pin down. The media stereotypes are for shallow, self serving political hacks to throw around. See: Spacebrother.

America and Europe act as one. As does the whole International Class. America only exists as lines on a map.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 4:16 pm 
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Brazil won the war. I know.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 4:18 pm 
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If you have to drop nuclear bombs on cities nobody wins.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:12 am 
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My_Name_Is_Fritz wrote:
Brazil won the war. I know.

Apparently, Brazil was pushed into war because German submarines sank more than 30 civil Brazilian ships killing 1000+ Brazilians. In return the Brazilian navy sank some 12 German submarines. The Expeditionary Brazilian Forces fought on the Italian/Mediterranean theater of the war...

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:34 pm 
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One of my favorites from the realm of speculative fiction.What if the Axis won?

Can't, won't, or don't read?
Amazon Prime has turned this into a ten part series. Produced by Ridley Scott.

Trailer=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzayf9GpXCI :shock:

Egg salad=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFM2xZ7dytk :P

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:34 pm 
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Fritz - the Manhattan project had cost over (checks Wiki for exact figures) $2,000,000,000 - in today's money about 20 billion dollars - during an extremely costly war. When you have a bomb that's that expensive, it's going to fall.

Sorry to hear about your grandfather, Fritz.
Currently I'm reading two books from the 1940s about WW2 in The Netherlands - one, Doodenwacht Bij Onze Gevallenen, deals with the four-day battle from May 10th to May 14th, the other with the war in general. The first book was initially to be published in 1941 - the introduction relates on how, after the initial announcement of the book was made, it became a symbol of rebellion against the nazis, and as such the license to publish it was revealed - not only that, manuscripts were burnt and authors interrogated by the SS and spent months in jail. The final product was produced in 1945.
The other one is a 1946 chronicle, Op Leven En Dood, and a thrilling read! The author has chronicled all the key events in daily life, it gives a great insight in what people knew about what's happening. History books often tell us that things were relatively calm until the Feb 1941 strike - not so. I also very much enjoy how he posts anecdotes and jokes to really illustrate people's feelings and concerns.
At the moment I've just reached January 1943. The author's just related that the Waffen SS has confiscated all dogs - leading to the joke that they're founding a new section, the Waffen Waf Waf. And the massive confiscation of bikes - this apparently also happened in 1942, to such an extent that people hid their bikes at home and disassembled them. The author tells us he noticed that the Germans only took men's bicycles. So the author removed his saddle, wheels and steer, and attached these to a woman's bicycle frame.
Anyway, both these books make the point of mentioning that many of the German soldiers were people and definitely not happy at being stationed far from home doing cruel things.
(If you'd like to see them I have put pictures on my book blog at bbp4bookshelf.tumblr.com)

Recently I acquired a DVD set of the Polygoon Journaal in WW2. Polygoon was sort of the Pathé of The Netherlands, producing light-hearted news videos to be shown in cinemas. During WW2 they were making propaganda and as such I find these DVDs hard to watch.
One item I've seen so far really shows what the nazis were made of: the Dutch Roman-Catholic church had forbidden rites to members of the Dutch nazi party NSB. When a female NSB member passed away, she was denied a church service and burial.
Which the WA solved by invading the cemetery so she could be buried in sacred ground.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:32 pm 
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I'm in 1942 with the DVD: basically it's the nazis marching in The Hague, the nazis marching in Deventer, the nazis marching in Maastricht, the nazis marching in Eindhoven...

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:43 pm 
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BBP get the dvd i suggested , here is an interesting fact as pertains to the A Bomb. In April 1945 Okinawa was invaded by the allies , more Japanese military died in that assault than all that died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined, also over 50,000 Us dead, this in THREE months. So..... you start to see the thinking of the deployment of the bomb. This combined with the race to beat the germans to the bomb.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:49 am 
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Germany tells Netanyahu: We are responsible for the Holocaust

Germany has insisted it was responsible for the Holocaust, after Israel's prime minister claimed a Palestinian leader told the Nazis to kill Europe's Jews.

Chancellor Angela Merkel said Germans were "very clear in our minds" that the Nazis were responsible.

Benjamin Netanyahu had said Hitler had only wanted to expel Jews from Europe, but that Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al-Husseini told him: "Burn them."

His remarks have been condemned by Israeli historians and politicians.

Speaking alongside Mrs Merkel in Berlin, Mr Netanyahu said "no-one should deny that Hitler was responsible for the Holocaust".

But on Tuesday speech at the World Zionist Congress in Jerusalem, Mr Netanyahu claimed Husseini had provided the idea.

"Hitler didn't want to exterminate the Jews at the time - he wanted to expel the Jews," he told the congress.

"And Haj Amin al-Husseini went to Hitler and said: 'If you expel them, they'll all come here.'

"'So what should I do with them?' he [Hitler] asked. He [Husseini] said: 'Burn them.'"

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Haj Amin al-Husseini allied himself with the Nazis and met Adolf Hitler in 1941

Who was Haj Amin al-Husseini?

Husseini, who died in 1974, was a Palestinian nationalist leader who led violent campaigns against Jews and the British authorities in what was then British Mandate Palestine in the 1920s and 1930s.

He fled the territory in 1937, but continued his campaign to oppose British plans to partition it into a Jewish state and an Arab one, allying himself with the Nazis during World War Two.

Husseini met Hitler in Berlin in November 1941, when he tried to persuade the Nazi leader to declare his support for the creation of an Arab state, according to German press reports at the time.

Husseini was sought for war crimes but never appeared at Nuremberg.

Mr Netanyahu's comments came amid a wave of stabbing and shooting attacks - several of them fatal - on Israelis by Palestinians, and one apparent revenge stabbing by an Israeli.

Israeli security forces have also clashed with rioting Palestinians, leading to deaths on the Palestinian side. The violence has also spread to the border with Gaza.

'Not true'

But the prime minister has faced a barrage of criticism at home for his remarks.

The chief historian at Israel's memorial to the Holocaust said they were factually incorrect.

"You cannot say that it was the mufti who gave Hitler the idea to kill or burn Jews," Professor Dina Porat from the Yad Vashem memorial told the newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth.

Opposition leader Isaac Herzog wrote on his Facebook page that the prime minister's remark "minimises the Holocaust, Nazism and... Hitler's part in our people's terrible disaster".

Palestine Liberation Organisation's Secretary General Saeb Erekat said in a statement: "It is a sad day in history when the leader of the Israeli government hates his neighbour so much that he is willing to absolve the most notorious war criminal in history, Adolf Hitler, of the murder of six million Jews."

How Israeli media reported the story

The Jerusalem Post says the chief historian at Israel's memorial to the Holocaust has "responded harshly" to Mr Netanyahu's speech. Professor Dina Porat told the newspaper he should backtrack.

Yedioth Ahronoth says Mr Netanyahu has been "slammed" for his remarks and quotes experts as saying Hitler did indeed meet the mufti - but only after the Final Solution began.

Haaretz says Mr Netanyahu has been "widely ridiculed" and has a piece looking at the subsequent online mirth, saying the prime minister "broke the internet".

The Times of Israel leads with Germany's insistence that it was responsible for the Holocaust and continues by saying Mr Netanyahu has been "roundly denounced".

+972 Magazine, an online current affairs magazine, says ordinary Israelis and Palestinians are "not letting Mr Netanyahu get off that easy" after his comments and published a series of internet memes mocking the prime minister.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34599706

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:24 am 
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Netanyahu is making it up completely. What a mendacious fuck that man really is.
To imagine that the Grand Mufti had any influence on Nazi decision-making is utterly risible.
What is even more worrying that he is instrumentalizing the Grand Mufti in order to justify Israeli treatment of the Palestinians as well as indirectly providing an apology for Hitler and the Nazis.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:52 am 
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i believe the fact is that husseini was a nazi supporter and in fact systematically ordered jews killed, this all way before the existence of israel he with hitler had the same objective, that is to exterminate jews, and the scary point is that the same objective seems to still exist.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 6:24 am 
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I agree he may try well have been a rabid anti-semite, but to claim that he had any influence on Hitler or the Nazis abandoning emigration of the Jewish population and moving on to liquidation of the Jewish race is wittingly skewing the facts and reveals how low Netanyahu can sink in terms of morals in order to justify his administration's treatment of the Palestinians.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 6:43 am 
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Well that's splitting hairs , they both had the same goal, as for the Palestinians it is still a holy war plain and simple, for hitler an Aryan race. isreal is only defending it's self. They are not the aggressors


Here is the real history Caputh: It was the Muslim Brotherhood, founded in Cairo in 1928, that established Islamic Jihad as a mass movement. The significance of the Muslim Brotherhood to Islamic Fascism is comparable to the significance of the Bolshevik Party to Communism: it was, and it remains to this day, the ideological reference point and the organizational core for all later Islamist groups, including Al Queda and Hamas.



While British colonial policy contributed to the rise of Islamic radicalism, the Brotherhood's jihad was not directed against the British, but focused almost exclusively on Zionism and the Jews.



Membership in the Brotherhood rose from 800 members in 1936 to over 200,000 in 1938. In those two years the Brotherhood conducted a major campaign in Egypt, and it was against the Jews, not against the British occupiers. This campaign against the Jews, in the late 1930s, which established the Brotherhood as a mass movement of Islamic Jihadists, was set off by a rebellion in Palestine directed against Jewish immigration from Europe and Russia. That campaign was initiated by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini.



Al-Husseini was extremely impressed with Adolf Hitler and his anti-Jewish rhetoric. In 1941 he visited Hitler in Berlin. He was so enthralled with Hitler and the Nazis, and their plans to exterminate the Jews that he decided to remain in Berlin. He lived there from 1941 to 1945, recruiting Muslims in Europe for the Waffen-SS. He was very close to Hitler. Husseini's best friends were Heinrich Himmler and Adolf Eichmann.



He convinced Hitler that he would be able to persuade his Muslim brothers in the Arab world to carry out the extermination of Jews in the Middle East, just as the Nazis were doing in Europe.



In November, 1943, In appreciation of the work that al-Husseini was doing in exterminating Jews, Himmler wrote him the following telegram:



"To the Grand Mufti: The National Socialist movement of Greater Germany has, since its inception, inscribed upon its flag the fight against the world Jewry. It has therefore followed with particular sympathy the struggle of freedom-loving Arabs, especially in Palestine, against Jewish interlopers. In the recognition of this enemy and of the common struggle against it lies the firm foundation of the natural alliance that exists between the National Socialist Greater Germany and the freedom-loving Muslims of the whole world. In this spirit I am sending you on the anniversary of the infamous Balfour declaration my hearty greetings and wishes for the successful pursuit of your struggle until the final victory. Signed: Reichsfuehrer S.S. Heinrich Himmler"



In his memoirs after the war, Al-Husseini noted that "Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews." The answer I got from the Fuehrer was: 'The Jews are yours.'"



The Muslim Brotherhood organized mass demonstrations in Egyptian cities during the late 1930s under the slogans, "Down with the Jews", "Jews get out of Egypt and Palestine", and the like. Leaflets called for a boycott of Jewish goods and Jewish shops, and the Brotherhood's newspaper, Al-Nadhir, carried a regular column on "The Danger of the Jews of Egypt."

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:11 am 
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When exactly did the idea of moving the Jews to Madagascar get the boot?
The 1946 book mentions that, from the Amsterdam Jews taken to Mauthausen, 1/3 had already died by January 1941, the author assumed they were experimented on with poison gas. Back in the day the deceased could still get a mourning ad.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:23 am 
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BRAVO SIERRA wrote:
Well that's splitting hairs , they both had the same goal, as for the Palestinians it is still a holy war plain and simple, for hitler an Aryan race. isreal is only defending it's self. They are not the aggressors


Here is the real history Caputh: It was the Muslim Brotherhood, founded in Cairo in 1928, that established Islamic Jihad as a mass movement. The significance of the Muslim Brotherhood to Islamic Fascism is comparable to the significance of the Bolshevik Party to Communism: it was, and it remains to this day, the ideological reference point and the organizational core for all later Islamist groups, including Al Queda and Hamas.



While British colonial policy contributed to the rise of Islamic radicalism, the Brotherhood's jihad was not directed against the British, but focused almost exclusively on Zionism and the Jews.



Membership in the Brotherhood rose from 800 members in 1936 to over 200,000 in 1938. In those two years the Brotherhood conducted a major campaign in Egypt, and it was against the Jews, not against the British occupiers. This campaign against the Jews, in the late 1930s, which established the Brotherhood as a mass movement of Islamic Jihadists, was set off by a rebellion in Palestine directed against Jewish immigration from Europe and Russia. That campaign was initiated by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini.



Al-Husseini was extremely impressed with Adolf Hitler and his anti-Jewish rhetoric. In 1941 he visited Hitler in Berlin. He was so enthralled with Hitler and the Nazis, and their plans to exterminate the Jews that he decided to remain in Berlin. He lived there from 1941 to 1945, recruiting Muslims in Europe for the Waffen-SS. He was very close to Hitler. Husseini's best friends were Heinrich Himmler and Adolf Eichmann.



He convinced Hitler that he would be able to persuade his Muslim brothers in the Arab world to carry out the extermination of Jews in the Middle East, just as the Nazis were doing in Europe.



In November, 1943, In appreciation of the work that al-Husseini was doing in exterminating Jews, Himmler wrote him the following telegram:



"To the Grand Mufti: The National Socialist movement of Greater Germany has, since its inception, inscribed upon its flag the fight against the world Jewry. It has therefore followed with particular sympathy the struggle of freedom-loving Arabs, especially in Palestine, against Jewish interlopers. In the recognition of this enemy and of the common struggle against it lies the firm foundation of the natural alliance that exists between the National Socialist Greater Germany and the freedom-loving Muslims of the whole world. In this spirit I am sending you on the anniversary of the infamous Balfour declaration my hearty greetings and wishes for the successful pursuit of your struggle until the final victory. Signed: Reichsfuehrer S.S. Heinrich Himmler"



In his memoirs after the war, Al-Husseini noted that "Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews." The answer I got from the Fuehrer was: 'The Jews are yours.'"



The Muslim Brotherhood organized mass demonstrations in Egyptian cities during the late 1930s under the slogans, "Down with the Jews", "Jews get out of Egypt and Palestine", and the like. Leaflets called for a boycott of Jewish goods and Jewish shops, and the Brotherhood's newspaper, Al-Nadhir, carried a regular column on "The Danger of the Jews of Egypt."


Mass extermination of the Jews began in 1941 on the Eastern Front. Gassings of Jews by Germans were already in progress by 1943. Himmler's letter which you quote above from thus occurs at a time when the Holocaust had already begun. Al-Husseini's statement seems to prove that he thought the extermination of the Jews was something that one should imitate, rather than it was his idea. Thus Netanyahu's claim that the Grand Mufti somehow persuaded Hitler to exterminate the Jews rather than let them emigrate is disproved by your quotes, too. Gassings of the Jewish minority in Palestine (175, 000 in 1931, 630,000 in 1947 versus over a million Palestinians) in the 30s and 40s by the Palestinians did not take place. Even if they had wanted to, Palestine was a British Mandate at the time and perhaps the British would have had something against it.
BTW nobody was close to Hitler with the possible exception of Eva Braun and Geli Raubal, IMO. Particularly not the Grand Mufti who met him only once on the 28th of November 1941, 5 months after mass shootings of Jews by Germans on the Eastern front had begun. At this meeting, Hitler refused to shake his hand, failed to offer him coffee (an insult to any Arab), but was prepared to offer him lemonade. Afterwards, he declared that he was pleasantly surprised to note ideological similarities and commented on the Mufti's blue eyes. Nevertheless, this does not constitute political or personal closeness in my view. That the Mufti was anti-semitic is, as I said above, beyond doubt. That he initiated the holocaust is bollocks. His residency in Germany would also appear to somewhat limit his influence over the Palestinians who continue to live in the British mandate.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:09 am 
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Ok then how do YOU know how many Jews were killed by this .Membership in the Brotherhood rose from 800 members in 1936 to over 200,000 in 1938. In those two years the Brotherhood conducted a major campaign in Egypt, and it was against the Jews, not against the British occupiers. This campaign against the Jews, in the late 1930s, which established the Brotherhood as a mass movement of Islamic Jihadists, was set off by a rebellion in Palestine directed against Jewish immigration from Europe and Russia. That campaign was initiated by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini.
ed by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini.

Not that it matters all that much but it seems you could be incorrect, let's agree that both groups wanted to kill jews and one still does and that is the point Netanyahu is makeing , personally i don't care if the Palestinians gave the idea to hitler or not the fact is they were in it together , Islamic jihadist predate hitler just a few years, this seems to make you sound like a nazi sympathizer.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:32 pm 
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I disagree that that is the point that Netanyahu is making. He said the Hitler changed his policy of mass-emigration of Jews from Europe to mass extermination as a result of advice by the Grand Mufti. This is an utter distortion of the historical facts and he knows it. In fact, he is actually by implication, absolving Hitler and the Nazis of guilt in the decision making process. That appears to me to be far closer to being a Nazi sympathizer than someone who criticizes an individual politician who happens to be an Israeli.
BTW the branch of the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine wasn't set up until 1942. (c.f. this article in the Jewish Virtual Library http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... rhood.html) It engaged in terrorist attacks in Palestine. That IMO cannot be equated with genocide.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:49 pm 
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Here you go this should make you feel better>Added Netanyahu, “The Mufti was instrumental in the decision to exterminate the Jews of Europe. The importance of his role must not be ignored. The Mufti repeatedly proposed to the authorities, primarily Hitler, Ribbentropp and Himmler, to exterminate the Jews of Europe. He considered it a suitable solution for the Palestinian question.” Netanyahu quoted Eichmann’s deputy, saying at the Nuremberg trials, “”The Mufti was one of the instigators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and was a partner and adviser to Eichmann and Hitler for carrying out this plan’.”

The prime minister went on, “The attempt by certain scholars and people to be apologists for the key and important role of Haj Amin al-Husseini, is clear. Many other researchers cite this testimony and others regarding the role of Haj Amin al Husseini. My intention was not to absolve Hitler of his responsibility, but rather to show that the forefathers of the Palestinian nation, without a country and without the so-called ‘occupation’, without land and without settlements, even then aspired to systematic incitement to exterminate the Jews. Unfortunately, Haj Amin al-Husseini is still a revered figure in Palestinian society. He appears in textbooks and it is taught that he is one of the founding fathers of the nation, and this incitement that started then with him, inciting the murder of Jews – continues. Not in the same format, but in a different one, and this is the root of the problem. To stop the murders, it is necessary to stop the incitement. What is important is to recognize the historical facts and not ignore them, not then and not today.”
not up for discussion

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:42 am 
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This was after Merkel had said this...

"All Germans know the history of the murderous race mania of the Nazis that led to the break with civilization that was the Holocaust," Chancellor Angela Merkel's spokesman Steffen Seibert said when asked about Benjamin Netanyahu's remarks.

"This is taught in German schools for good reason, it must never be forgotten. And I see no reason to change our view of history in any way. We know that responsibility for this crime against humanity is German and very much our own."

...responding to Netanyahu's original statement which was this:

"Hitler didn't want to exterminate the Jews at the time, he wanted to expel the Jews," Netanyahu said in the speech. "And Haj Amin al-Husseini went to Hitler and said, 'If you expel them, they'll all come here.'

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.681679

As French Conservative ex-President Sarkozy (whose father was a Greek Jew) put it: "I cannot bear Netanyahu, he's a liar."

Once again, I'm not denying that the Grand Mufti was an anti-semitic, Nazi loving arse.
The question being why, after 60 years does Netanyahu bring him up and associate his views with those of all Palestinians? Why, in his original statement, did he try to pass the blame for the Holocaust and, through guilt by association, on to the Palestinians of today? Could it be that he thinks that he can justify his illegal settlement policies on the West Bank by claiming that the Palestinians started the Holocaust? Yes, I think it might.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:10 pm 
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That's all fine and dandy caputh but i give netanyahu a pass; his position and country are some what surrounded by Muslim countrys and most seem to oppose the Jewish faith . Hopefully Germany won't experience radical problems from your Syrian refugees.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:22 pm 
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That Israel is surrounded by enemies is undoubtedly true - but IMO there have been immeasurably better Israeli premiers than Netanyahu. I share your hopes that Germany does not suffer from Syrian extremists.

It appears, however, that many Jewish historians share my opinion on his remarks. At the best misleading, at the worst absolving the Nazis of responsibility I find the comments of Lipstadt (who wrote the excellent "Denying the Holocaust - the growing assault on truth and memory") at the end of the article, particularly pertinent:

"Rabbi Marvin Hier, founder and dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles, tried to explain what he is certain Netanyahu meant to say. “The prime minister of Israel knows very well that Adolph Hitler was the person responsible” for the Holocaust, he told Haaretz.

“Maybe he didn’t phrase it the right way, but what he was trying to say is that he had many assistants enthusiastic about this idea,” including Jerusalem Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini. “Maybe he should have phrased it more clearly, but his intention was to say that ‘let’s not forget that before there was a State of Israel, when there were no settlements, there was a grand mufti who thought they should get rid of the Jews.’"

“The Palestinians’ arguments [against Israel] begin with the settlements and with the occupation, but none of that applied” when Hitler met with the grand mufti of Jerusalem and the Muslim leader spoke of his interest in ridding the world of Jews," Hier said. “The Palestinians have to own that point. They must admit that point.”

The Anti-Defamation League's new CEO, Jonathan Greenblatt, chastised Netanyahu on Twitter Wednesday, writing: “even if unintended, the PM’s words trivialize Hitler’s role…we must always be careful in talking about the Holocaust…at a time when there is hateful incitement against Jews spreading across the Internet, it’s important to stay focused on the issues at hand today.”

Representatives of other prominent Holocaust museums had little to say. Their leaders, like Holocaust historians around the world, just wanted to set the historical record straight.

“I join the chorus of historians throughout the world in clarifying the facts,” wrote David Marwell, Director of New York’s Museum of Jewish Heritage — A Living Memorial to the Holocaust, in an email response to an interview request. “By the time the Grand Mufti met with Hitler at the end of November 1941, the Germans were already engaged in mass murder of the Jews.”

The Museum declined to make him or anyone else available for additional questions.

The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C. issued this statement in response to Haaretz’s inquiry: "Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, was an anti-Semite and willing Nazi collaborator. While actively supportive of Nazi Germany's efforts to annihilate world Jewry — he sought to inspire Muslim men to serve in Axis military and auxiliary units and advocated the murder of Jews — the 'Final Solution' would have occurred with or without his complicity.”

A museum spokesman declined to make anyone available to answer questions.

Most scholars of the Holocaust and smaller museums around the country did not respond at all to requests, made by phone and email, for interviews.

“I’m not sure I can add anything new to the discussion,” wrote Elizabeth Gelman, executive director of The Florida Holocaust Museum, in St. Petersburg. “As my colleagues have been widely quoted, the statement that Prime Minister Netanyahu made was factually incorrect. Germany itself has reaffirmed its responsibility for the Holocaust.” Gelman did not reply to follow-up questions.

Rafael Medoff, director of The David S. Wyman Institute for Holocaust Studies in Washington D.C., used the opportunity to write Haaretz that the entirety of the mufti’s role in the Holocaust, “aside from the many anti-Jewish speeches he broadcast to the Arab world from Germany, will not be known until the relevant Arab archives are opened.”

Why the reluctance to say much directly about the impact of Netanyahu’s misstatement?

“Israel has a lot of tsuris,” said Hier, of the Wiesenthal Center, using the Yiddish word for “problems.”

Holocaust groups are “really upset and yet don’t want to criticize Netanyahu publicly — particularly at a moment when Israel needs support. Israel is under attack from terrorists and they want to stand together with Israel, not criticize, ” said the head of another major Jewish organization, who asked not to be named.

“As the Germans put it, Netanyahu has instrumentalized the Holocaust for current political purposes. That’s a horrible thing to do,” he said. The prime minister “has now tried to use the Holocaust as another tool in his political quiver.”

But one leading Holocaust scholar, Deborah Lipstadt, spoke more freely.

The implications of Netanyahu’s statement “are very bad,” said Lipstadt, a professor of modern Jewish history and Holocaust studies at Emory University in Atlanta. “The situation [in Israel] is terrible,” but “you don’t have to revise history to make that point.”

His revision of long-accepted historical fact “certainly suggests that Jews play with the facts,” Lipstadt told Haaretz. “It was a big mistake on his part. He really went too far this time.”"

http://www.haaretz.com/misc/article-pri ... m-1.681889

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:49 am 
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The Third Reich’s saucer


In 1937, as Nazi Germany was rising from the ashes of the old German Republic and becoming the world’s first real superpower, an incredible thing happened: aliens crashed their distressed craft into the German countryside. [Secret Treaty: The United States Government and Extra-terrestrial Entities]
The German army was there to pick up the pieces. No record exists, however, indicating whether any bodies were also retrieved.

When word of the crashed disc made it’s way back to the German High Command and the report landed on the Führer’s desk, he immediately ordered elements of the Luftwaffe and Germany’s top aeronautical experts to sift through the remains. Ostensibly, the damaged saucer was moved into a warehouse facility under 24-hour guard near the Rhine. Some parts were also flown to a facility near the Austrian border.
Allegedly, members of the teams that worked on the advanced alien technology were from the Luftwaffe, the Speer Ministry of Arms headed by Albert Speer, and the formal research council, the “Reichsforschungrat,” composed of university professors and industrial engineers.

The teams were assembled to reverse engineer what was salvaged and among the experts called upon were the Horton brothers—who later designed and tested revolutionary flying wing aircraft and the world’s first stealth jet fighter-bomber. Some of their resulting technology may have been gleaned from intense study of the alien craft, although that cannot be proven.


Later, the expertise of Viktor Schauberger was tapped. He was the inventor of the revolutionary imploder motor that created an imploding vortex. That motor may have been the basis for later S.S. experiments in Poland with the notorious Glocke (Bell) device that reportedly created inter-dimensional rifts in space-time. [The S.S. Brotherhood of the Bell: The Nazis' Incredible Secret Technology].

Italian researcher Renato Vesco, in his classic and well-researched book, "Intercept – But Don’t Shoot: The True Story of the Flying Saucers" asserts that the Nazis were working on many advanced propulsion systems and rudimentary anti-gravity devices to power their disc-shaped, or lenticular, aircraft.


Alien craft spurred German’s engineering efforts


Although vastly influenced by the capture of an actual disc, research into circular aircraft had been going on as far back as the experiments in Italy before 1920 with crude jets attached to aerodynamic discs. [Hitler's Flying Saucers]

The ET craft served to advance propulsion, electronics and provided clues to workable designs, but the scientists were at a loss regarding the metallurgy as the craft was composed of materials unknown to them and impossible to duplicate in the lab.

Some of Germany’s most advanced theoretical engineers and physicists were personally tasked by Hitler to get the technology working and make it available for the war effort. In that regards, geniuses like Ballenzo, Habermohl, Miethe and Schriever were recruited.

Documents captured by the Allies after the war ended indicate that Schriever was the first to have some success with the disc technology. His own research, augmented by what had by then been deduced from the retrieved saucer, enabled him to build a working craft powered by specially designed jet engines. The craft, however, was unstable. The first two versions ended in disasterous crashes killing the test pilots. [Man-Made UFOs, 1944-1994: Fifty Years of Suppression].


Tides of war turn, Nazis expand saucer projects

As the years advanced and the Allies began counter-attacking Germany, some Nazi officials began pressuring Schauberger to adapt a verson of his Repulsine imploder to serve as the motive force for a different type of disc craft using the vortex propulsion motor.

Although the Nazi engineers and scientists built their first experimental saucers from light steel or heavy aluminum, the steel still proved too heavy and the aluminum too soft and not tough enough to withstand the stress subjected to it when molded into a lens-shaped craft.

Frustrated scientists finally gave up trying to unravel the mystery of the alien metal and succeeded in creating their own version with an alloy of aluminum and magnesium in 1944. The new alloy was exactly what they needed to design bigger and better craft. The metal was light, yet more durable than simple aluminum.


Hitler pressed the engineers onwards with greater frenzy. Germany was now suffering nightly bombing raids and factories across the country had been moved to gigantic underground facilities. Aircraft production lines were being hampered and destroyed and the rocket facility run by Werner von Braun at Peenemünde was not back up to full capacity after being bombed in 1943.

Slave laborers, mostly Slavic, were pressed into service to produce V-2 rockets, advanced aircraft, synthetic fuel, high explosives…and incredible remote-controlled flying saucers.


According to documents and the testimony of surviving Polish slave laborers, the Germans actually created an assemblyline to manufacture a flying disc weapon called the Kugelblitz (ball lightening).

The Allied pilots called them Foo-fighters.

The Kugelblitz was the first real flying saucer ever manufactured by any nation on Earth. Several of the tests were secretly attended by Hitler and his S.S. chief, Heinrich Himmler.


According to captured documents, the radio-controlled craft were made in the underground factories at Thuringia and the craft varied in size from 10 to 15-feet across. Reportedly they were amazingly manueverable and were able to achieve speeds of more than 1,250 miles per hour. They emitted a strong electo-static field designed to disrupt the electrical circuits of conventional aircraft causing enemy planes to falter, dive, and crash.



Other saucers



Prototypes of other saucers were designed and engineering mock-ups were made. Some made it as far as wind tunnel tests. A few disc craft other than Schriever’s early attempts were constructed and flown.

About 18 months before the Germans surrendered, Hitler pinned his hopes—and those of Germany—on the incredible potential of a mind-boggling array of superweapons. The greatest of the weapons were his new class of Vengeance weapons.

The old V-weapons were the rocket plane V-1 and intracontinental missile V-2. Hitler’s dream envisioned the world’s first cruise missile: a V-3 sub-orbital, intercontinental hypersonic rocket capable of hitting New York and Washington.


S.S. Reichsführer Himmler recommended S. S. Grupenführer Hans Kammler to head the saucer projects and save the Fatherland. Hitler agreed.

Undoubtedly, Germany’s superweapons—specifically those they were perfecting in the closing months of the war—would have defeated the Allies and helped Germany conquer and rule Western and Eastern Europe, suppress the U.S.S.R., and keep America neutered—even with the new atomic weapon the U.S. had developed.

But the Germans ran out of time.

Some argue that no matter what the Nazis had, they could not have staved off American atomic attacks. Yet evidence exists that in the final weeks of the war the Germans successfully detonated their own low-yield atomic bomb and that coupled with stealth aircraft, the imploder vortex motor, advanced television bombs, the hypersonic V-3 “Amerika Bomb,” and flying saucer fighters—ostensibly augmented with harvested alien technology—would have sealed the fate of the Nazi’s enemies…



…and perhaps Adolf Hitler would have attained his twisted dream of a Thousand Year Reich.


:smoke:


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