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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:29 pm 
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Now, that's ridiculous once again. I've read the Pope's speech today. He held a seminar at the the university at Regensburg. It dealed with the relation between religion and violence and the relation between cultures. I hardly could follow the Pope's speech. Guess you have to study theology and philosophy to understand it. But I understand that he didn't blame the muslims. He only quoted a fucking king from 13th century, who made a provocating remark. The Pope used this remark just as an example. He made clear that he didn't second it.

Now, here you can see how the intellectuals from the east react:

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I know this thread is useless. But this story make me mad. So I would like to cry: SHIT !

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:50 pm 
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The parliament of Pakistan, anyhow a state with nuclear weapons, demands an apology for the remarks.

That's weird. They can build nuclear weapons, but they can't read a speech in its full lenght.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:19 pm 
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That's the thing about governments: they love it when they can get away with blaming someone else for something.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:53 pm 
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You can't negotiate with brainwashed, crazed people, simple as that, and that's all the worse for any kind of peaceful solution for what's going on in this sick fucking world these days. Why do outside observers like us (espech Zappa fans, ofcourse) always have the right mindset?
If everyone in the world loved Zappa this world would be a much better place!

And so the rejected pope leaves the stage again...

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:28 pm 
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Son Of Willie The Pimp wrote:
You can't negotiate with brainwashed, crazed people, simple as that, and that's all the worse for any kind of peaceful solution for what's going on in this sick fucking world these days.


....and the rest of the world are all peaceful free-thinkers?

"Depending on which book you're using at the time... Can't use theirs... it don't work... it's all lies... Gotta use mine...

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:45 pm 
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Fucking Illuminati Pope, setting fire on the circus to gather European support for the war in Iran... :roll:

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:01 pm 
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I think that Mr Green Genes is not so far away from the real aim.
In Europe a radical extremestic catholic movement is climbing since some years and dramatically jumped up in the popular consensus after 9/11 event. Now Iran is the enemy, of course (and they forget what Bush has provoked in Iraq, where the problem is not anymore Saddam but now the civil war and the climbing of islamic integralism).

This Pope is a asshole like the former one. Of course he has told a fucking quote but the former Pope was far smarter and would have never quoted that sentence because it is difficult to reason with muslims that feel offended for every fucking stupid think they don't like.

I shared Pope's claims for the respect of the environment (he is the first in the histopry to develop such a standpoint) but this story seriously open the possibility suggested by Mr. Green Genes.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:20 am 
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This pope does seem like an ass. To me, quoting some obscure 13th century text mostly seems like a sly method to obscure his own opinion about Islam. Hey, if he really just wanted to denounce religiously inspired violence, how come he didn't talk about the Spanish Inquisition or the crusades? :mrgreen:

Of course, the reaction of these short-fused muslims is also out of bounds, just like with the cartoon riots of some months ago.

Anyway, all these religious leaders, both catholic and muslim, seem to be mostly interested in adding fuel to the fire. I'm all for free speech, but.. with great power comes great responsibility.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:42 am 
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Studebaker wrote:
Anyway, all these religious leaders, both catholic and muslim, seem to be mostly interested in adding fuel to the fire. I'm all for free speech, but.. with great power comes great responsibility.


I cannot agree more Stude

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 1:38 am 
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:09 am 
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An Italian sociologist, Renzo Guolo, said the Pope have broken a taboo when he spoke about the Koran and of Muslin religion in a direct fashion. When he spoke of "religious relativism", he implied that only catholicism can reach the "plain truth"...

Studabakers argument about the inquisition says it all.

This was no accident, as the cartoons row was no accident.

And you know what, if I were a muslin I would be pissed off too by the systematic demonization of my culture and the constant "propaganda" against it (I am already, and I am not a religious person, strictu sensu)...

Most of you belive muslins were the masterminds behind 911. As most of you know, I don't. So all this fucking war on terror is just a sick charade. One to achieve dark goals. If the "conspiratorial" theorists are right, the war in Iran is inevitable, it is only a matter of when...

Moslem or Christians Mullah or Pope
Preacher or poet who was it wrote
Give any one species too much rope
And they'll fuck it up
- Roger Waters

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Last edited by Mr_Green_Genes on Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:16 am 
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muslims, catoholics, protestants, evangelists,
all of them illegitime sons of the jewesh,
they're all stupid...including and foremost the jewesh,
god doesn't exists or fucking present him to me


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:24 am 
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googly moogly wrote:
god doesn't exists or fucking present him to me


Maybe at judgement day? :roll:

_________________________________________________

Pope 'sorry' for offence to Islam

Pope Benedict XVI has said he is sorry that a speech in which he referred to Islam has offended Muslims.

In a statement read out by a senior Vatican official, the Pope said he respected Islam and hoped Muslims would understand the true sense of his words.

In Tuesday's speech the Pope quoted a 14th Century Christian emperor who said the Prophet Muhammad had brought the world only "evil and inhuman" things.

The remarks prompted protests from Muslims around the world.

But the Pope is known to have strong feelings about the relationship between religion and violence and is unlikely to retract the sentiment of his speech.

There will still be concerns about whether to go ahead with the Pope's planned visit to Turkey in November, our correspondent says.

Some commentators in Rome have suggested it may be useful for his lecture to be translated into Arabic, so that people can make their own judgement and see for themselves in what context the quote was made.

Reactions to the speech have come from such leaders as Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf, who said efforts to link Islam and terrorism should be clearly opposed.

Malaysian Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi said the Pope should not underestimate the sense of outrage felt by Muslims.

But German Chancellor Angela Merkel came to the pontiff's defence, saying the aim of the speech had been misunderstood.

Protests

In his speech at Regensburg University on Tuesday, the German-born Pope explored the historical and philosophical differences between Islam and Christianity, and the relationship between violence and faith.

Stressing that they were not his own words, he quoted Emperor Manuel II Paleologos of the Byzantine Empire, the Orthodox Christian empire which had its capital in what is now the Turkish city of Istanbul.

The emperor's words were, he said: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

Benedict said "I quote" twice to stress the words were not his and added that violence was "incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul".

The speech provoked criticism from around the world, and there were street protests in Pakistan, India, Turkey and Gaza on Friday.

In the West Bank city of Nablus, two churches - one Anglican and one Orthodox - were attacked with firebombs on Saturday by assailants.

A group which said it carried out the attacks, calling itself the Lions of Monotheism, said they were protesting against the Pope's remarks.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5351988.stm

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:05 pm 
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Well, best and only thing he can do is apologize for a misunderstanding. Of course some people want to misunderstand. I hope he won't apologize for his lecture. That would be a defeat of free speech.

My point wasn't to blame muslims or defense the Pope. I respect both so far they respect me. My point is that freedom of free speech is threatened by people, who don't have a clue why they demonstrate. Some extremists told them so, I know. Same thing with Salman Rushdie and a few others. That's not new and it happened before 9/11. It happened for thousands of years now and everywhere in every continent.

But this is the 21st century.

I think that's enough for political statements for me. Next time I'll post pics of titties. I hope I won't cause a riot with that. Who knows.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:21 pm 
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It fuckin beats me why people can't learn to live side by side without all this shit. Religion sucks arse. The Muslims piss me off, complaining that they're hard done to...they are as bad as the Christians, who are as bad as every other organised religion. I wish they'd all fuck off and live somewhere together and leave the rest of us to live in peace. Let them fucking kill each other, I don't give a fuck. In fact, if I had my way, I'd squeeze the lot of them on my Titanic and send them in the direction of a "holy" iceberg. There, how d'ya like that ship of fooools!

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:52 pm 
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I understand Fritz's point.

The radical middle eastern extreamists would find any reason to go on mindless street crusade because it gives them more media coverage.

Someone could take offence at the name of a can of house paint and determine that it is against Muslim doctrine...Time to start rioting...goodbye critical thinking, time to join the others and prove my worth. :roll:

If ever there was an excuse to legalize marajuana, this is it. Someone ought to develope a "pot bomb" and chill those fuckers out. :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:52 am 
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I would maybe agree with you Milton (or with Fritz), if the Pope weren't the major religious force for catholics and even christians in general. As a man of great power, he should choose his words (and quotations) more carefully. After all, all of us "very-civillized", "peaceful" and "nice" westerns know what happens when you step on those guys' calluses. In a world on the brink of a major armed conflict, which our "leaders" insist in depicting as a war on terror (which seems more like a 21st century crusade to me), that would have been a very bad move by the former-nazi-youth-of-Germany-Pope, if it were not made on purpose and meticulously planned (imo)... Maybe we should throw that pot-bomb over the Withe House, what do you say?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:51 am 
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Milton Bradley wrote:
I understand Fritz's point.
Someone ought to develope a "pot bomb" and chill those fuckers out. :lol:


Lol, I cracked up when I read that......And I agree with Mr.GG that it should be detonated over the white house...and in addition, over Congress, The Pentagon, and most importantly over the 37 US companies that sell 60% of the arms to the world.

Also, If we had more "amunition," we could detonate another in each boardroom that practices overseas job arbetrage.

Maybe we could use the LSD 25 munitions to smooth out the mashed potatoes a little too, they may be the lol, "smarter bombs."

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:27 am 
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aspy_2nd_bunch wrote:
Religion sucks arse.


"Fact of the matter is, there is no hip world, there is no straight world. There's a world, you see, which has people in it who believe in a variety of different things. Everybody believes in something and everybody, by virtue of the fact that they believe in something, use that something to support their own existence." - FZ

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:25 am 
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OPINION
Rushdie, Hirsi Ali, the Pope -- Who's Next?


By Claus Christian Malzahn in Berlin

The pope has apologized for the outrage amongst Muslims sparked by his recent comments. But the episode proves once again that criticizing Islam is dangerous.

Twenty years ago in the German city of Bremen, Dutch comedian Rudi Carrell's life depended on police protection. His offense? In a satirical program on German television, he let fly with a lewd joke about the then leader of the Iranian revolution Ayatollah Khomeini. Mass demonstrations in Iran -- orchestrated, no doubt, by the government -- were the result. The threats of violence led to an apology by Carrell, and he never again made a joke about any Muslim -- at least not on television.

In February 1989, the Ayatollah then released a fatwa calling for the murder of Salman Rushdie for his novel "The Satanic Verses." The book, he and other Muslim leaders claimed, was a grave misrepresentation of Islam. Rushdie's Japanese translator lost his life as a result of the fatwa and Rushdie himself went into hiding, though the Iranian leadership distanced itself from the fatwa in 1998. There remain, however, a number of fanatical Muslims who yearn to see Rushdie dead.

Feminist and Islam critic Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the former Dutch parliamentarian who recently left Holland, also lives under threat of murder. In addition to a number of interesting books about the oppression faced by women in the Muslim world, she also wrote the screenplay for the short film "Submission." In one scene, a verse from the Koran -- demanding that women bend to the will of their husbands -- is projected onto a woman's naked body. The film was provocative, and the filmmaker Theo van Gogh paid for it with his life. He was killed on the streets of Amsterdam by a Muslim fanatic.

And then there's Flemming Rose, the Danish editor who a year ago published a series of Muhammad caricatures in his newspaper. Months after they originally appeared, the Muslim world erupted in protest against the drawings. He too must fear for his life.

One thing should be kept in mind, however: The often violent protests that erupted in the Muslim world in the wake of the cartoon controversy have often been manipulated and fuelled by Islamists. The bile currently being flung at the pope is no different.

But the attacks against the pope are especially grotesque. The severe criticism -- often coupled with threats of violence -- directed at the speech held last Tuesday by Benedict XVI is not just an attack on the head of the Catholic Church. The malicious twisting of the pope's words and the absurd allegations made by representatives of Islam represent a frontal attack on open religious and philosophical dialogue.

That so many in the Muslim world joined the protests against the pope merely show just how influential Islamist extremist groups have become. The political goal of the Islamists is clear: any dispute between Christianity and Islam must obey the rules handed down by political Islamism.

Bending to this demand would be a mistake -- indeed it would be tantamount to turning one's back on freedom of expression and opinion. What will come next? Perhaps a complaint that Allah feels insulted by the numerous European women who don bikinis during a summer trip to the beach. It could be anything really -- militant Islamists will always find something. But the response needs to be firm. Freedom of speech, after all, is a vital value and needs to be defended. Any attempt to make political speech hostage to some imagined will of God must be resisted.

There are -- few -- critical voices that should be taken seriously when it comes to the pope's comments. Shouldn't Benedict XVI have known that the quote he included in his speech -- a passage he himself described as "brusque" -- might be misunderstood? Couldn't he have made his meaning a bit clearer? Even if he had, it should be welcomed by all, including leftist atheists and agnostics, that we now have a pope who can pose challenging academic questions. In any case, a close reading of his speech reveals not a single insult directed at a single Muslim.

And there's no reason to respond to every presumed insult. Consider an example from Denmark. Recently, a paper there published a number of rather tasteless Holocaust cartoons which had been shown in Tehran. The reaction of Copenhagen's rabbi was instructive when considered against the bloody response to the Muhammad cartoons -- outrage which ended up costing lives. When asked if he would call for protests, the rabbi merely said: "You know, I've seen worse."

© SPIEGEL ONLINE 2006

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:29 am 
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Claus Christian Malzahn wrote:
But the episode proves once again that criticizing Islam is dangerous.


I guess that so is to criticize the US:

Bush, the Emperor wrote:
Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.


Claus Christian Malzahn wrote:
The bile currently being flung at the pope is no different.


Who does fuel the bile the Pope flungs at the Muslins?

Claus Christian Malzahn wrote:
The malicious twisting of the pope's words and the absurd allegations made by representatives of Islam represent a frontal attack on open religious and philosophical dialogue.


And how should we view the Pope's criticism on Islam (cowardly hidden behind a quote)?

Claus Christian Malzahn wrote:
What will come next? Perhaps a complaint that Allah feels insulted by the numerous European women who don bikinis during a summer trip to the beach.


No, maybe ID cards, and microships under your skin, and biometric gizmos everywhere in the "free" western world, wathcing your every steps. Or just, simply a plain big mushroom cloud over Iran.


Claus Christian Malzahn wrote:
There are -- few -- critical voices that should be taken seriously when it comes to the pope's comments. Shouldn't Benedict XVI have known that the quote he included in his speech -- a passage he himself described as "brusque" -- might be misunderstood? Couldn't he have made his meaning a bit clearer?


100% agreed...

Claus Christian Malzahn wrote:
Even if he had, it should be welcomed by all, including leftist atheists and agnostics, that we now have a pope who can pose challenging academic questions.


Academic questions? About other people's religions? Why not pose important academic questions about institutions such as the CATHOLIC INQUISITION, one which was led by the very same Pope who became the first moder Pope to openly criticized another religion's faith?

Claus Christian Malzahn wrote:
In any case, a close reading of his speech reveals not a single insult directed at a single Muslim.


That is not my reading:

Pope Ratzi wrote:
In the seventh conversation (διάλεξις - controversy) edited by Professor Khoury, the emperor touches on the theme of the holy war. The emperor must have known that surah 2, 256 reads: "There is no compulsion in religion". According to the experts, this is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat. But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Qur'an, concerning holy war. Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels", he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness, a brusqueness which leaves us astounded, on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached". The emperor, after having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God", he says, "is not pleased by blood - and not acting reasonably (σὺν λόγω) is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death...".
The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature. The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality.


The church could have thought like that during the Inquisition period.

Anyway, an opinion piece by a guy name Christian have to be biased on that matter... :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:46 am 
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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
aspy_2nd_bunch wrote:
Religion sucks arse.


"Fact of the matter is, there is no hip world, there is no straight world. There's a world, you see, which has people in it who believe in a variety of different things. Everybody believes in something and everybody, by virtue of the fact that they believe in something, use that something to support their own existence." - FZ



I well aware that you 'aint meant to start a sentence with the word "and", but...in reponse...

And what....? :?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:48 am 
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You are a smart girl, you figure out... 8)

Another opinion piece:
___________________________________________________


Pope Benedict XVI's remarks on Islam unwise and damaging

Kornelius Purba, The Jakarta Post, Jakarta

Pope John Paul II, during his 26-year papacy, was quite respected by Muslims for his empathy with Islam and the suffering of Palestinians and Iraqis.

He showed great concern over the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan, and the fate of Palestinians. He prayed for Aceh, although he also, on several occasions, expressed dismay over what he believed was Indonesia's disappearing religious freedom.

So how has his successor done, in terms of maintaining relations with Islam?

Pope Benedict XVI has only been in office for about six months, and there are already strong signs that he will be tougher and more open with his remarks than his predecessor. Which is a nice way of putting it.

The comments made by the pope about Islam and violence, as recorded in a seven-page English translation of an address at the University of Regensburg in Germany on Sept. 12, received mixed reactions from Catholics around the world.

They also left many Catholics in predominantly Muslim nations like Indonesia fearing for their security. His statements could affect long-term relations between the world's two biggest religions.

Certainly, the pope must have had his reasons for touching on Islam in his lecture on faith and reason. Perhaps he wanted to encourage more frank academic debate among scholars, or he just wanted to express his honest assessment of Islam.

He clearly wants a more mature and straightforward discourse on relations between Islam and Christianity and other religions. But while Israel continues to oppress Palestinians, and millions of Iraqis must suffer simply because the United States did not like Saddam Hussein, are the pope's comments helpful in healing religious divisions?

Did he take into account the possible reactions to his speech, and the direct impact on Catholics across the globe?

If such a remark came from U.S. President George W. Bush, Muslims perhaps would say, "No wonder." But these came from the pope.

For Indonesian Catholics, who are a minority here, their immediate concern is their own safety and the security of their churches. Personally, as a Catholic, I have to ask myself: "Why would my beloved leader say that in public?"

While the pope's concerns over the relationship between Islam and violence -- by quoting a 14th century conversation between Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleolugus and an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam -- are shared by many people around the world, he should have chosen his words more carefully, or not have said them at all.

As the supreme leader of the Catholic church, was it wise to discuss such a sensitive issue amid the growing distrust between Christianity and Islam, regardless of the truth or untruth of his observations? It will be more difficult now to argue there is no "clash of civilizations" between the West (Christianity) and Islam.

It will also be more difficult for the Catholic church to continue an effective interfaith dialog with Islam if Muslims suspect the sincerity of the church's leader. In Indonesia even Muslim hard-liners retained a degree of trust in the late pope John Paul II. And we Indonesian Catholics were very proud of that. But now I am afraid we will not be able to have that same level of pride. Only time will tell.

It should be taken into account, however, that Pope Benedict's speech was delivered to scholars at the university where he was a professor and vice rector from 1969 to 1971. So it was, in effect, an academic paper.

In paragraph 7 of the speech, the Pope said, " ... the emperor must have known that sura 2:25 reads: 'There is no compulsion in religion.' It is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under (threat). But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Koran, concerning the holy war."

In paragraph 10, he said," ... but for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality ...."

The Vatican has been engaged in damage control. But with the Internet, people around the world have immediate access to the full transcript of the speech, and not all of them will feel that the Vatican's clarification is adequate.

It would be saddening, however, if Muslims acted violently to demonstrate their anger over the pope's comments. Such violence would only strengthen the perception -- not necessarily accurate -- among non-Muslims that Islam tolerates violence. It would be better to regard the pope's address as a challenge to prove to the world that Islam truly is a peaceful religion.

We can only hope that the controversial statements by the head of the Catholic church will somehow turn into a blessing in disguise, by promoting dialog and helping to restore trust between the two major religions.

As an ordinary Catholic with limited knowledge about church teachings, again I can only say: "Was it necessary for my Holy Father to make such a comment?"

The writer can be reached at purba@thejakartapost.com

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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
You are a smart girl, you figure out... 8)



Yes, I am a smart girl, not that I need you to point that out to me, but again I ask, and what??
I did not say I didn't get your point. Fact is, despite what you say (or rather what you quote), Religion does suck arse. Second only to maybe sheer greed, it creates the most war and hatred on this planet. Yes, we're all diverse, and I respect that, but what I dont respect are religious nutcases, screaming at the top of their voices that the next person along has it all wrong because they believe in a different God. I don't need that shit in my life.

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In my point of view the comment isn't biased at all, because it's about political and radical religion and how its threatened freedom of speech. It's not a comment against islam at all.

I can't see a catholic conspiracy against islam as well or that Vatican is supporting Bush's crusade. They are in two different businesses.

Pope bashing is easy. It seems it's much more dangerous to hold a lecture in theology than crying out loud GOD IS DEAD or THE POPE IS AN ASSHOLE on Peter's Place in Rome.

It's very dangerous to mix up different issues all together in one great conspiracy against somebody. We had this here 73 years ago.

Recently there was found a bomb in a train I use to travel with from time to time. It was deposited by two fanatics from Lebanon. Fortunately it didn't explode. So I feel concerned by this war against innocents in Iraq, US, Britain, Spain and recently against an italian nun in Somalia and children in Afghanistan.

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