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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:22 pm 
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rfus wrote:
Man, heavy shit being talked about.

I really don't want to keep this thread going, but I thought that I would make one point. As most of you know, Frank was arrested after he was solicited to make an audio sex tape at Studio Z, and spent 10 days in jail circa 1963. I reckon he would have been put on that list.

I don't know anything about this subject, and with regards to NMB, no one here does either. This post is very Nancy Grace, and should be deleted.



We do know that NMB either plead to or was convicted of a sex crime to be on the registry site. Due to his age he is not in that often quoted "I was 18 she was 17" group. So one of two crimes is left rape or a 60 year old man was with an underage girl. Granted he could have been set up, but either way I still remain very disappointed, and there is absolutely nothing Nancy Grace about that.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:09 pm 
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thepoodlebites wrote:
First off I had currently saw statistics stating the opposite of what you said. Crimes against children have dropped continually over the years. Its just in the media more. I do believe the crime fits the punishment. In this country you can do more time for tax evasion than murder? Look at all the states were they allow concealment of a weapon against the states that don't...Crime is higher in the states were they don't allow you to conceal and carry..(Its a deterrent..That's a fact!) Canada has more guns per person than the US and almost no gun crimes (Why?) The same would apply on punishment. There would be a lot less crime if they wouldn't just slap the hand of the offender..then release them back into a naive society. Crime is always going to happen. Innocent people will get fucked by the system..But stiffen the penalties and it will act as a deterrent! At worst they would rot in Jail..Not back on the streets to rape,rob, and murder some more! Rehab does not work! and if it does who gives a fuck..They had there chance in society..they blew it. Why risk innocent people on the failure of the system. Fuck the lawyers who defend this scum too! And by the way...If my father had done that shit to me..I would of knocked his fucking head off!...(Pleaded mental and physical abuse..Then I would take my chances that I would get released on some fucked up slacked laws) This is how our system works. No offense! It's just my sarcastic view!

1) I believe I remember the statistic you are referring to, it was a general crime statistic as opposed to a target victim statistic. Generally speaking crimes against children have declined steadily since the sixties if I remember correctly, this however could be attributed to factors outside of law enforcement. Most notably, the increased access to contraception, and abortion. There are less unwanted, and neglected children, therefor there is less crime against them. This could change, and the trend would reverse if contraception, and abortion were to become tougher to attain.

2) You'll get no argument from me on the 2nd amendment.

3) The prevalence of guns has shown a measurable deterrent affect, that is provable. Capitol punishment has not shown a measurable deterrent affect, that is also provable. Texas has the highest rate of capitol punishment in the country, and also the highest rate of violent crimes last time I checked.

4) I notice this idea of eliminating the lawyers that defend those accused of sex crimes went unchallenged. Allow me. Pretend I am a D.A. and I have just charged YOU with rape, and have already given a statement to the media. Would you really not want to have someone familiar with the law to defend you? Would you really be in favor of eliminating our greatest legal accomplishment, the right of the accused to a fair trial, and the right to a defense, as well as the presumption of innocence? Would you prefer some form of faith based criminal justice system, perhaps dunking? "He was innocent after all, he drowned." :wink:

5) No offense taken.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:19 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:21 pm 
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It's all a misunderstanding. Napoleon was merely singing Zomby Woof and they took it as fact that he dragged somebody from their bed and did it to them up on the roof.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 6:27 am 
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stride wrote:
...Condescending Cretin...


Well, at least I am not (a)Treacherous (Cretin)

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:32 pm 
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I find it worrisome that people are placed in public "stocks" (? is that the right word ?) for public humiliation. As we see here we don't actually get any real info, just that something is "fishy" with the guy.

It is astonishing that such information is publicly available in a civilized society. Can you also look up tax evaders? Drug dealers? Traffic violations? Poor credit history? In many societies such issues are considered private, and only to be revealed (to some designated few) if an appropriate authority can obtain necessary juridical permission.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:12 pm 
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I think HJ has a point here. It seems that, no matter how repulsive rape and child molestation may be, they are classified as the kind of crime that demands a double punishment; prison for a period of time and public humiliation for life.
I have only the deepest disgust for the crime in itself, but I do find the moral and legal ramifications of life-long persecution of those who commit them disturbing too. If you take the case of Gary Glitter, you do begin to wonder whether a prison term in a Vietnamese jail might not be enough punishment, without putting his name on a public list and being constantly filmed in restaurants by the press, claiming that he leered at the waitress, when all he appeared to be doing was eating a meal.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:46 am 
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If you have children, which I do though they're getting older (one is an adult now), wouldn't you want to know if a convicted child molester lived near you. I would and because of the list I was aware of a dude who did live just a few houses down from us. And Child molesters cannot be rehabilitated, there is a screw loose there that can never be fixed. I'm not talking about borderline statutory rape but genuine child molesters. I don't know the psychology of adult rape but I don't really want to cut these guys any slack either. No doubt some people are wrongly accused and convicted but we just have to do the best we can. Life ain't perfect.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:54 am 
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KillUgly wrote:
If you have children, which I do though they're getting older (one is an adult now), wouldn't you want to know if a convicted child molester lived near you. I would and because of the list I was aware of a dude who did live just a few houses down from us. And Child molesters cannot be rehabilitated, there is a screw loose there that can never be fixed. I'm not talking about borderline statutory rape but genuine child molesters. I don't know the psychology of adult rape but I don't really want to cut these guys any slack either. No doubt some people are wrongly accused and convicted but we just have to do the best we can. Life ain't perfect.

I would like to know if some conservatives live in my neighborhood so I can instruct my kids to ignore whatever they are saying.
Also, drug dealers.
And on it goes......life ain't perfect.
No, honestly, I find the system appalling. If a person is incurable, as you describe it, he/she should not be allowed to live in your neighborhood at all. He/she should be permanently institutionalized. This system of hanging out people is just leaving too much over to private actions and punishments for my taste.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:57 am 
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If you have children, which I do though they're getting older (one is an adult now), wouldn't you want to know if a convicted child molester lived near you. I would and because of the list I was aware of a dude who did live just a few houses down from us. And Child molesters cannot be rehabilitated, there is a screw loose there that can never be fixed. I'm not talking about borderline statutory rape but genuine child molesters. I don't know the psychology of adult rape but I don't really want to cut these guys any slack either. No doubt some people are wrongly accused and convicted but we just have to do the best we can. Life ain't perfect

Well, actually I do have two kids, one of whom visited a Kindergarten for a short period, where the caretaker was inofficially known to have been a child molester. I'm entirely in two minds about the subject; I do feel worried by possible child molesters, on the other hand, as you so rightly point out, these people are very often impossible to rehabilitate and I think that is the crux of the problem; they are not normal criminals i.e. they do not do it for personal gain or enrichment - they often do it because they cannot help themselves. I tend (and only tend) to the option that they should be sectioned for life, unless one is 100% certain they won't do it again. However, I am worried by the ramifications of, on the one hand, giving them a official prison sentence and then marking them.
Actually, NMB appears to be a good example; we're all sat here, wondering "Was it rape, was it child molestation, was it a bum rap?", on the basis of his name turning up with some numbers on some list.
(And I agree with HJ again)

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 2:33 pm 
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HJ wrote:
KillUgly wrote:
If you have children, which I do though they're getting older (one is an adult now), wouldn't you want to know if a convicted child molester lived near you. I would and because of the list I was aware of a dude who did live just a few houses down from us. And Child molesters cannot be rehabilitated, there is a screw loose there that can never be fixed. I'm not talking about borderline statutory rape but genuine child molesters. I don't know the psychology of adult rape but I don't really want to cut these guys any slack either. No doubt some people are wrongly accused and convicted but we just have to do the best we can. Life ain't perfect.

I would like to know if some conservatives live in my neighborhood so I can instruct my kids to ignore whatever they are saying.
Also, drug dealers.
And on it goes......life ain't perfect.
No, honestly, I find the system appalling. If a person is incurable, as you describe it, he/she should not be allowed to live in your neighborhood at all. He/she should be permanently institutionalized. This system of hanging out people is just leaving too much over to private actions and punishments for my taste.

As far as political beliefs (or religious) being targeted that is extreme. As an individual, I do take note of the politics and religious beliefs of my fellow citizens because I do not want their opinions and beliefs to be used innapropriately or illegally. I think the more things are put on the table the more things are discussed openly I think the more chance you have of coming to some good decisions. If you want to live in a civilized society you need to have rules. Imperfect as we are, some rules may suck, but ideally we will always be examining said rules and making adjustments and improvements. Again, life ain't always fair. Sometimes you eat the bar' and sometimes the bar' eats you. By the way, I agree that a certified child molester should never be allowed to roam free in society. The Lockerbie bomber shouldn't have been let go either. What do you do? You scream like hell and hold the bastards responsible accountable.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:07 pm 
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The sex offenders list is for the protection of people who are concerned with not running into possible perverts, not for smearing somebody's name all over creation. It is sad and scary when it is used in that way. I have used it myself, when I was dating to check out someone with a somewhat gray background to see it he was on that list. I think for that use it is a god send. I know it would not protect me (or my children if I had any) completely, but at least it gives me some idea. It is a tool, that's all and not something to be used for entertainment. I wouldn't have said anything to anybody if I had found the guy on the list.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:31 pm 
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Is NMB a sex pervert?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 5:07 pm 
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sabrinaIII wrote:
The sex offenders list is for the protection of people who are concerned with not running into possible perverts, not for smearing somebody's name all over creation. It is sad and scary when it is used in that way. I have used it myself, when I was dating to check out someone with a somewhat gray background to see it he was on that list. I think for that use it is a god send. I know it would not protect me (or my children if I had any) completely, but at least it gives me some idea. It is a tool, that's all and not something to be used for entertainment. I wouldn't have said anything to anybody if I had found the guy on the list.


If you had a girlfriend who was considering dating him after you would you have said something? If you knew he was applying as counselor at a youth summer camp would you say anything? I'm just saying.

You're right. It shouldn't be used for entertainment. However, I have looked at the list for my hometown (I don't live there now) out of curiousity and found a few high school mates. It didn't really surprise me who turned out to be the scumbags. Would I share this with people I knew in that community? Of course.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:03 pm 
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How is it possibly that Caputh and HJ are so concerned about an individual convicted of a sex crime being haunted by their act the rest of their life, with no mention of the ramifications for the victim’s life. You may want to rethink that position lest we think you idiots.


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 Post subject: re: nappy on the list
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:46 pm 
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plook wrote:
... You may want to rethink that position lest we think you idiots.
not hardly, probably 2 of the most intelligent on the forum; interesting take on the significance of privacy, canada has a registry but it's not public, individual privacy appears to be of higher importance in europe, european bidders cannot be disclosed by search on ebay after the item ends, unlike usa, uk & canda, so it's no surprise the idea of a public registry doesn't fly very far from a euro-centric viewpoint



btw, there's 2 rso's living up the street from me, nice to know who the neighbors are

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:48 pm 
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It would seem that a private registry wouldn't be very effective. :?


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 Post subject: re: nappy on the list
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:57 pm 
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non-public access: law enforcement & certain employers like schools

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:45 am 
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slime.oofytv.set wrote:
non-public access: law enforcement & certain employers like schools



A simple (effective) background check would reveal the offenders record, and a registry would serve a larger community, a registry with-out access is a government data base (very socialized). I have never personally checked one, I may have if my daughters were not grown. I am no fool and understand that a certain amount of people we would call "innocents" are swept up in such a registry. I am very happy when I see a prisoner who was able to prove he is innocent was set free, great! I am disgusted when I hear a story about people who were imprisoned for child molestation during the 80’s when the witch hunts for child molesting cults was in vogue in places like LA and Bakersfield, sad.
But you, Caputh, & HJ would throw out the baby with the bath water, we know there are always innocent people, but their numbers are few. Even if they were as high as 5% (highly unlikely), that still leaves hundreds of thousands of molesters and rapists.
I am sorry to say this, since you are entitled to your opinions, but to feel sympathy for this group of scum who would rob a child of their childhood or rape a woman and deprive her of her pride and self security, you’re nuts. There is absolutely no defense for these people and you three by somehow trying to intellectualize the conversation to mask the slimy disgusting nature of these crimes, have totally shown that you have marginalized yourselves from normal social understanding of crime. You can’t possibly be living in a world where you know or have met anyone who has suffered these acts, and that may be you’re only redeeming position from your complete scorn.
Like many others you three somehow confuse these crimes with sexual passion or aggressive love, they are neither and are nowhere in the same zip code with these things. The motivation of these criminals is violent or submissive control over another, they are taking away the individuals choice of what will happen to their body, they enslave through force, and subjugate by overpowering.
Do yourselves a favor and check in to the long term ramifications for these victims and then come back and let us know what you found, enough with this stupidity already, holy crap.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 7:25 am 
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Plook wrote:
How is it possibly that Caputh and HJ are so concerned about an individual convicted of a sex crime being haunted by their act the rest of their life, with no mention of the ramifications for the victim’s life. You may want to rethink that position lest we think you idiots.


I did actually mention the fact that I consider such crimes vile and that I am certain they have a very negative effect on the victim's life. The victims certainly have my sympathy.
I also made no mention of the criminal being "haunted for the rest of their lives", merely that sometimes they would appear to act under compulsion as other criminals are not (watch the Fritz Lang film "M" for a simplified version of this argument, or read the Denis Nilsen biography "Killing for company" for a more complex and very shocking version).

The point I was making is a different one; is this the correct punishment? That it should be punished is beyond doubt. These days, we do not consider hanging, drawing and quartering criminals an apposite punishment. Equally putting people in the stocks is no longer groovy, but as HJ points out this is what this system seems to be. I think putting someone in a mental hospital for the rest of their life, if it is proven that they are compelled to do these kinds of acts is more apposite punishment than giving them a short to medium prison sentence (fine chance of rehabilitation) and then pointing out to the general public that they are guilty of something to do with sex and making them potential targets of lynch mobs; thus encouraging further crime.
If this, in your eyes, makes me an "idiot" as you so politely and thoughtfully put it, so be it.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 7:34 am 
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slime.oofytv.set wrote:
non-public access: law enforcement & certain employers like schools


That's a given. I work in Parks and Recreation. I hire people who are day camp counselors, youth sports coaches, lifeguards, etc. It is a State (CA) Law that anyone with supervisory power over a minor in a recreation program must complete a background check with the Department of Justice. The law is pretty specific about what crimes would exclude you from these positions. If you're a convicted sex offender you're out - period. There are also drug and weapons charges that would disqualify you. I would think these laws are pretty universal - at least in the western world.

Megan's Law was created so all of us can be aware of any sex offenders that may be living amongst us. A pretty good thing to know. If you've got kids. If you're a woman considering dating a man you don't know well. If you're a single woman living alone. If you're a single mother. If you own a day care. I'm so sorry for the very, very few who wrongly end up on the list but you don't throw the whole system out because of a very slight percentage of error. You'd never be able to do anything in life, professionally or privately, if you had to be guaranteed perfection every time you stepped out of the house.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:28 am 
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Caputh wrote:
Plook wrote:
How is it possibly that Caputh and HJ are so concerned about an individual convicted of a sex crime being haunted by their act the rest of their life, with no mention of the ramifications for the victim’s life. You may want to rethink that position lest we think you idiots.


I did actually mention the fact that I consider such crimes vile and that I am certain they have a very negative effect on the victim's life. The victims certainly have my sympathy.
I also made no mention of the criminal being "haunted for the rest of their lives", merely that sometimes they would appear to act under compulsion as other criminals are not (watch the Fritz Lang film "M" for a simplified version of this argument, or read the Denis Nilsen biography "Killing for company" for a more complex and very shocking version).

The point I was making is a different one; is this the correct punishment? That it should be punished is beyond doubt. These days, we do not consider hanging, drawing and quartering criminals an apposite punishment. Equally putting people in the stocks is no longer groovy, but as HJ points out this is what this system seems to be. I think putting someone in a mental hospital for the rest of their life, if it is proven that they are compelled to do these kinds of acts is more apposite punishment than giving them a short to medium prison sentence (fine chance of rehabilitation) and then pointing out to the general public that they are guilty of something to do with sex and making them potential targets of lynch mobs; thus encouraging further crime.
If this, in your eyes, makes me an "idiot" as you so politely and thoughtfully put it, so be it.


And one more in...


Like many others you three somehow confuse these crimes with sexual passion or aggressive love, they are neither and are nowhere in the same zip code with these things. The motivation of these criminals is violent or submissive control over another, they are taking away the individuals choice of what will happen to their body, they enslave through force, and subjugate by overpowering.


Yes a life of punishment is appropriate for these individuals as they have left a lifelong mark on their victims. You all seem very intelligent on many subjects, but appears that you need to nourish your minds as to the real nature of these crimes, do some research and report back.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:45 am 
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Plook wrote:
quote]

And one more in...


Like many others you three somehow confuse these crimes with sexual passion or aggressive love, they are neither and are nowhere in the same zip code with these things. The motivation of these criminals is violent or submissive control over another, they are taking away the individuals choice of what will happen to their body, they enslave through force, and subjugate by overpowering.


Yes a life of punishment is appropriate for these individuals as they have left a lifelong mark on their victims. You all seem very intelligent on many subjects, but appears that you need to nourish your minds as to the real nature of these crimes, do some research and report back.


Er. Plook where did I, or the other 2 mention that sexual passion or aggressive love came into it all? Compulsion indicates the failure to control a, in this case, revolting desire that, as you so rightly put it, involves enslaving through force etc.
This, however, connects up to the question of responsibility i.e. if the person cannot stop themselves from doing these things. This poses the moral question: "Do we therefore treat this person in the same way as we do a normal criminal, who can control himself?"
Your answer is: "No, we stick him in prison, like we do other criminals and if he ever gets out then we hand him over to the public to decide (thus bypassing the law). What worries me here is the sudden introduction of the general public as some kind of unqualified (and in the case of NMB entirely underinformed) judge- this I find a little medieval.
My answer is "No (too- you see, we're agreeing), put him (or her) into a high security mental home for the rest of his life, using a judicial system to pass the sentence on whether he was compelled to commit the crime or not.
Maybe we should all go away and do some reading, but it would be helpful for any debate, if you did actually read the posts people make instead of swinging out at them. merely because they do not share your point of view.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:56 am 
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Unfortunately, in California we are already letting criminals out of prison early or not putting them in in the first place because we're so broke we can't afford to incarcerate them. I seriously doubt California is going to start building facilities and housing sex offenders for life anytime in the next, oh I don't know, 100 years or so.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:01 am 
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That doesn't necessarily mean they shouldn't do it, though...

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