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Interested in the Second World War/Europe in the thirties?

Want to talk about Dutch tanks?

Think that less gun control would have prevented Hitler?

Believe that war could not have been won without the US?

Think that Stalin was "Uncle Joe"?

Here is the place to air your views in their entirety.

Here an interesting article about the holes in the roof of Crematorium II to introduce Zyklon B into the gas chambers at Auschwitz that some Holocaust Deniers claim were not there.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... oles.shtml

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"I have learned from my mistakes, and I am sure I can repeat them exactly."

Embrace Godwin!

If you're interested in anything that's specifically Dutch and would like to know more, Caputh, then go ahead and ask. I have some interesting material about Eindhoven in WW2 and facsimili of the Dutch magazine for refugees in England "Vrij Nederland".

My grandmother's cousin Jacob was in the resistance. He got caught, was transported to Konzentrationslager Husum-Schwesing, where he died days before the camp closed, on 16 Dec 1944.

Husum-Schwesing was a subcamp of Neuengamme, which was a labour camp that mainly held political prisoners. It was opened on 26 September 1944 and was fully emptied by the 22nd of December of that year - operations had ceased by November.
A total of 2,500 people from 14 different nations were set to work here - in a camp that was built to host 400. The inmates of this camp were supposed to work on the Friesenwall, a defense line of anti-tank trenches by the German North Sea coast. The trenches were to be 5 m wide and 3 to 4 m deep - in a ground that wasn't suitable for this kind of digging, the trenches would often overflow with mud, undoing all the work of the previous day. Besides the weather conditions, the hard labour on way too little food, the inmates had to endure bullying from the Kampos (usually German inmates who were actually in prison for regular prison things, like murder) and the sadist commander Hans Hermann Griem.
The Friesenwall turned out to be useless - the dismantling of the camp started in November 1944.

Out of the 2500 total, 300 to 500 inmates passed away from the gruelling circumstances, making Husum one of the deadliest labour camps.

Numerous eye-witnesses have written about Husum-Schwesing: the best-known account is by priest Pierre Jorand. An English translation of his account can be downloaded from here:
http://www.nordfriesland.de/Kultur-Bildung/Kulturarbeit-des-Kreises/KZ-Gedenkst%C3%A4tte-Husum-Schwesing/Besucherinformationen

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German scientists interviewed after the war stated that they recieved assistance in their advance technologies from beings from another world who were in regular contact with a group of Psychics that called themselves the Vril Society (named after a popular german book from the late 1800), the scientists claimed they would have the women ask technical questions and they would recieve answerrs that helped them devolope their advanced weaponry, aircraft, and rocket designs.

^ Shortly after that the first UFO sightings began in the USA.

I'm glad the nazi aircraft engineers and scientists found a home in the good old US of A after the war.

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My Dad was in the US Army during WWII. He never talked much about his experiences and apparently they weren't too exciting. I recall him saying that when he was on the bus for his induction he was reading a newspaper that said married men would not be drafted. He was married to my Mom by that time. He did basic training in Seattle during which time my oldest brother was born in 1945. My Dad ended up in Okinawa at the tail end of the war. I remember his big "war story" was that he had to jump into a tank when a typhoon struck. My young mind connecting tank to war assumed it was a tank with a big gun sticking out the front. It took me awhile to figure out he was talking about some kind of storage tank. I don't doubt that that was my Dads humor in action on par with the wooden club with red paint on it that my Dad explained was a real caveman club that had killed a dinosaur. He also told me a simple corral near our house in Northern California was the real OK Corral of legend. I believed it. I was a pretty gullible kid.

Over 300 people killed themselves in the caves of Okinawa - these were civilians who were pressured to do this by the Japanese army, telling them that all hell would break loose if the US troops were to take control.

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The politically correct idea of not talking about Hitler and the boys, is having it's desired effect.
(this was 2 days ago)

NDP candidate Alex Johnstone 'didn't know what Auschwitz was'

"A Hamilton school trustee running in the federal election for the New Democrats has apologized for making a crude reference related to Auschwitz, reportedly saying she had no idea that it was a notorious Nazi death camp."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/ ... -1.3241065

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I don't know Caputh, are Dutch tanks cool?

Judging from all the gay spectacle performed in Triumph of the Will, I don't think less gun control would have stopped Hitler from rising. Hitler was popular. Less gun control would have made it bloodier, I would think. I have heard that the Reich used phony shootings and anti-gun media hysteria in their effort to rid the common German of his gun. I think we know what that is like.

I believe the US had to enter the war to keep the war from being waged on home turf. I'm not sure how Hitler could have invaded us, and I'm not sure how Hitler thought he was going to control all those conquered nations in the first place, but if he did create an Empire it would be a real pain in the ass for the good old USA and our banker overlords. Could Europe have defeated Germany without the help of the USA? Who really knows it isn't me, but I do know that the USA prospered mightily after the war mostly because the USA was not blown to shit like much of the rest of the industrialized world.

I thought Stalin was "Uncle Joe". What's that mean, anyway?

I still do not think the population figures add up to allow an extermination of six-million Jews, check the Red Cross numbers. Six-million people? Maybe. But I'm an anti-Semite just for talking about it, and it's true I am not a big fan of Israel. What happened happened a long time ago, and the adjustments made to the world order as compensation to Jews have created nothing but seriously stupid conflict. My father was also in combat during the war, and he claimed that he liberated some camp or other, and that part of it was bringing the townsfolk in so that they could see what had been going on inside the camp. He mentioned that they seemed genuinely surprised.

Jews have always been reviled, exiled, and genocided. It's part of what they are, it seems, and they admit it. Supposedly, the creation of Israel was to end all that, and perhaps it has, but I agree with Jimmy Carter, Israel is an apartheid state. I thought racism was unacceptable, but we give billions every year to this country that serves Jews first and brutally murders Arab innocents. Go figure. It's what we've become.

As for Nazi UFOs and secret Antarctic bases run by superwomen, all I can say is when does the movie come out?

1. I agree with you on the gun control - I think it highly unlikely that an untrained population could have risen up against Hitler and somehow deposed him, as...
a) the army was behind him
b) a majority of the people were behind him
c) the SA and SS had military training too

2. There's a book called "Homo Hitler" (ooer). I think it's rubbish, but is entertaining...
http://www.amazon.de/Homo-Hitler-Psycho ... 3442756030

3. If one examines the original documents and eye-witness reports, one can find out that 5 to 6 million is completely within the realms of probability c.f. the Irving Trial - the transcripts are really rather illuminating and one learns a lot.
http://www.hdot.org/en/trial/transcripts/index.html
(basically, a Holocaust denier being refuted; lots to read- it's worth it)

4. As to the question of Jewish predominance, anti-Semites are often keen to point out they have leading positions in the financial world, whilst forgetting that they were forced into that position from quite early on. The Christians in the Middle Ages were not allowed to lend money. The Jews were excluded from most professions and only allowed to lend money. When the debt was due, a pogrom generally followed (c.f. England). Now some complain that Jews control the financial world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_antisemitism

5. Roosevelt tried to get chummy with Stalin and told him that: "In private, Churchill and I call you Uncle Joe". Apparently, Stalin (with some justification) was quite offened and said: "Is this some kind of joke?"

6. I've never been entirely convinced by the idea of UFOs and Nazis myself...

@BBP what is the (right-wing or otherwise) Dutch attitude towards Artur Seyß-Inquart (Nazi governer of Holland). OK, a rabid anti-semite, but surrendered Holland to the Allies in 1945 and described by Thatcher's advisor, Airey Neave, as the "gentle Judas"?

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That's a good question. Dutch history class doesn't talk much about the way the Seyss-Inquart government worked during WW2 - just that the Dutch government moved to London and the royal family to Canada (but they spent some time in London too). After the strike of February 1941 against the persecution of Jews, he became ever rougher with the Dutch population, especially the resistance. His name sounds like "six-and-a-quarter" in Dutch, which was his... ehm... unpleasant nickname. As the spearhead of the Jew deportation (the toll of Dutch Jews was very high) he wouldn't be called "gentle" out here.

The most major scientific work on The Netherlands in WW2 is "Het Koninkrijk der Nederlanden in de Tweede Wereldoorlog" by Loe de Jong, a massive work in 14 parts over 29 volumes. It's in the public domain now and can be read completely on-line on the NIOD web site. But only in Dutch.

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I have trouble believing the Germans were in contact with aliens. I have trouble believing people anywhere have been abducted by aliens. Still, I don't doubt at all that there are other lifeforms out there. I find it easy to believe that the German aircraft engineers had some advanced ideas which they shared with US military after world war 2, and then the US military built these "UFO's" and experimented on their own citizens. Stalling their cars, drugging them, abducting them while wearing alien costumes. haha. It's seems plausible. Funny how all the ufo stories started a couple years after the war. Just enough time to build some flying saucers.


I find WW2 revisionism to be creepy. The further away we get from an event the less clear it becomes. I'm sure the original "facts" given to the public were spiced up with plenty of lies. Business as usual. And now "scholars" are still spinning it all into their neat little framework.

The reports I am talking about were not well publicized at the time so not very effective as propaganda, but the statements were contemporaneous with the events as they occurred from the late 20's through the late 40's. The Nazi’s were traveling the world gathering artifacts, Indian Jones is based on events that did take place as far as Nazis were concerned (I know of no guy that interfered with their efforts) although one item Hitler wanted very badly was the Spear of Destiny. He got one but the church guardians of this rarest of items (a spear head that contains within its structure the spear used to pierce Jesus's side while on the cross) swooped it out with a well-constructed fake that the priest protected as if the real one (several died defending it to sell the fake). Those Holy men may have possibly stopped Hitler since the holder of the piece is supposed to be undefeatable in battle...

I'm very interested in knowing more about WW2. Especially the holocaust denial part. But I don't know if I shouod trust these ideas.

google it...

Try this!
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Telling-Lies-Ab ... 1859844170

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"I have learned from my mistakes, and I am sure I can repeat them exactly."

DM - the war's history is essentially written by the victors.

Take Eindhoven - my humble home-town was the 2nd heaviest bombed city of The Netherlands, owing to the Philips factories where radios and light bulbs were made, and of course the airport. The amount of bombs that are still being found here is towering - just a month ago, they found one British bomb in the town centre. During the devastating bomb on a children's holiday on Sunday, Dec 6th, 1942, there were 150 civil victims, particularly children, because they'd just received toys and were playing outside with them. In this raid, the airplanes flew super low - two planes even crashed into buildings - that meant the German defenses were shooting low, causing a lot of casualties. Others were killed when the church (Sunday) was hit, and the hospital bombing also claimed a lot of lives.
Philips was destroyed, so from that point of view it was mission accomplished - but Philips had managed to keep on a lot of Jewish and other workers who were to be placed with the Arbeitseinsatz, who were dubbed "indispensable", but who lost their job with the bombing and so could be deported anyway.
The monument for the German bombing of Eindhoven (to stop the allies) a day after liberation was built - that one came very fast after the war. The monument for the British bombing of 6 Dec 1942 didn't come until 2010.
Nowadays, knowing about the lack of precision that the bombers would've had, you could say that the bombadiers took unacceptable risks in bombing factories in residential areas.

Take Nijmegen - a city bombed by the allied forces, unsure about the motive but the leading explanation is it happened by accident killing 800.
Research on the incident has always been low, nowadays it's referred to as the "forgotten" bombardment of one of our oldest cities.

Take the Starvation Winter - when in September 1944 the Dutch government in exile issued a train strike, its people followed - but the Germans retaliated by blocking all transport of food to the west of The Netherlands, including the biggest cities of Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague and Utrecht. Because of the liberation of the coal mines in Limburg during Operation Market Garden, no coal could be transported either. The winter of '44-'45 was extremely cold - trees were cut down illegally, wood was stolen from the tram rails (Nazi soldiers would shoot the people they caught doing that), there was no wood for coffins, in Amsterdam the corpses were stacked in an abandoned church, no pet and no animal was safe... Roughly 20,000 people, among them my great-grandfather, didn't survive. I know of my grandfather that he ate cat in this time.
No-one at the time would've doubted the Dutch government-in-exile, but nowadays there's a lot of criticism about the strike - should it have been kept knowing what it did to the people in the west?

Take the Pacific war - the US has always claimed that it was necessary to throw the A-bombs, to prevent a lot more casualties in the invasion of Japan - but Japan was on its knees, running out of food and oil, and doing it's best to negotiate. Unfortunately, the Japanese relied on the Russians to do the negotiating for them - they never did that. After Hiroshima, the Japanese government did its very best to get together - but those things take longer than the three days the US gave them, so the bomb on Nagasaki was dropped. Meaning the US killed 450,000 civilians in three days - not even the Nazis killed that fast.

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The USA is still the only country to have used a nuclear bomb in war. The end of WWII was a real stomping, and what the fuck does it mean to have one nation obliterating the infrastructure of another nation while the people of that nation still reside within the infrastructure?! It's absolute madness, and coming soon once again with WWIII. The human race is a joke, life is cheap, and technology is death.

Hey waka, Ernst Zundel got into a lot of trouble writing holocaust denial...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Z%C3%BCndel

Not sure why the "truth" needs a law to uphold it. If it can be proven that the holocaust was an invented story, it's a very serious thing.

Back before WWI Jews spoke of six million Jews needing to die before Israel could be created...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dda-0Q_XUhk

I think that's pretty good evidence that the number was part of the psyche of many Jews.

Kind of like the neo-con think-tank "Project for a New American Century", who declared that a "new Pearl Harbor" would be needed to get the American people to support overseas military excursions in efforts to secure resources...and viola, 9/11/2001.

It wasn't like the Jews weren't fighting Hitler all along...they despised him from the start. Hitler is portrayed a irrational, and no doubt was from time to time, but the Jews immediately made themselves enemies Germany when Hitler came to power, so naturally they would be on the early list when it came time for the "final solution" of exterminating everything that wasn't exactly Christian Caucasian.

http://www.biblestudysite.com/judeawar.htm

...and while the Pope's in town we should remind him that they didn't do shit about the Nazis they pretty much thought it was great from what I can tell.

I'm sure they feel bad about it now.

...



BBP you have a warped learning of WW2, I can't believe you were taught what you are posting in school, Japan openly said they would not surrender, they were given weeks prior to the first bomb to surrender, 3 days was plenty , you are misinformed. My uncle marched into Treblinka the holocaust was absolutely real.

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"I'm interested in the capitalistic way of life, and the reason I like it better than anything else I've seen so far is because competition produces results."

Some people here (and especially on the "no" side) are outrageously stupid and full of anti-American bias and needs to seriously brush up some real history and not some PC-crap they learned in public schools.

A lot of people forget that WWII isn't some Napoleonic Wars of the 1800s where it's just soldiers meet each other in the battlefield to settle the issue. With the introduction of an airplane thanks to the Wright Brothers in 1903, it took warfare to the whole new level.

In WWII, civilians in the cities were part of the war effort since all sides mobilized it's resources to defeat the enemy. Every bomb dropped, every bullet fired, every warships carry soldiers in the sea, every warplanes fly over other countries to strike targets, every tanks used to withstand bullets/shells, every uniform clothing made for soldiers, every artillery used to pound enemy troops, all were made by civilians. Obviously it's where the army used to get these things from and kill enemy soldiers overseas. Therefore, they were a fair game.

Bombing the cities full of military importance(also housed by civilians) would deny the enemy military the resources they needed to wage war against us. And as bad as it goes, it practically worked and Japan didn't have resources left by 1945 to wage war. This term is called "Total Warfare".

To give an analogy: If a person makes a bazooka gun, then gives it to a friend, knowing full well it was going to be used for a crime, then that person is so guilty. The civilians worked in the factories and small-time industrial workshops KNOW the weapons they were making was going to be used for war, therefore represents a fair game. It was either their life or ours. Every country values their life over the others so it's obvious both sides don't give a shit but only their own.

Hiroshima & Nagasaki were military targets. The HQ of the 2nd General Army under General Shunruku Hata was in Hiroshima which commanded the defense of all southern Japan and they were 40,000 soldiers stationed in the city. In Nagasaki, it also had thousands of industries supporting the war effort especially the Mitsubishi factories making "Zero" planes used to ran the U.S. naval fleet off the Pacific Coast. The idea was to cripple their war effort, not to kill as many Japanese, as historically illiterates used to say.

And the U.S. dropped leaflets on Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and 33 other Japanese cities on August 1st, 1945. Search "LeMay bombing Leaflet". It warned Japanese civilians that in a few days, the cities they lived in will be targeted for bombing and were advised to leave right away to save themselves from destruction. One of the leaflet statements also said, "bombs have no eyes", meaning they can't control where the bombs fell. Be it nuclear bombs, firebombs, high-conventional bombs, etc, it doesn't matter because what the warnings said on August 1st 1945 was serious.

Since most people in Hiroshima & Nagasaki did not leave, the deaths were their responsibility.

I don't see Japan doing that at Pearl Harbor nor American soldiers asked to be bombed that day. I also don't see the Japanese military doing that after conducting military operations in Asia that kill 20 million non-Japanese people as well.

And the Japanese didn't bother to surrender AFTER THE FIRST BOMBINGS. Many fanatic Japanese officers were convinced that the Americans only had ONE BOMB even they know it was. So they decided to go on with the war. However, the 2nd bomb was dropped on on Nagasaki and many Japanese officers still resisted to surrender. However, Hirohito feared that if they go on with the invasion, then the entire nation would be exterminated because the U.S. may have more A-bombs in the assembly lines. So they did,

And in response to the posting Anonymous that the invasion would only cost 100,000. Wow, you're a moron. The invasion of Japan would not just costs the U.S. 100,000 lives it also costs millions of Japanese lives too. There are rock solid basis for those estimates: Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Saipan. Those were outlaying islands of Japan. JAPANESE CIVILIANS committed suicide rather than surrender. In Okinawa alone, civilians including woman and kids were mobilized by the Japanese Army to fight the Americans and as a result, 100,000 civilians died. Do you really think it would have been easier on the mainland? No it was not. To say otherwise is really ridiculous.

The A-bombs saved more lives than it took. If the A-bombs was't used, then the U.S. would had go back to firebomb every major Japanese cities which would have caused the same amount of deaths ad destruction. Tokyo was ripped by firebomb and more than 100,000 civilians died in a single night which was worser than the A-bombs combined. Yes the radiation was a different story but in terms of deaths and destruction, i don't see the A-bombs different from the firebombings that was practiced by all nations during WWII.

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"I'm interested in the capitalistic way of life, and the reason I like it better than anything else I've seen so far is because competition produces results."

I don't necessarily agree with everything BRAVO SIERRA says, but I think he makes some interesting points above. I at least am of the opinion that Truman at the time definitely believed that the Japanese would not surrender unless absolutely forced to. One can see evidence for this at the Potsdam Conference in July and August where he was still trying to persuade Stalin to get involved in the war against Japan. Considering the fact that he was not exactly an enormous fan of Stalin's this indicates that he was still worried about a long drawn-out conflict with Japan and was even prepared to sacrifice Japanese and Chinese territory to the Soviets as a result.

So your uncle was at Treblinka, BS - was he one of the Soviet soldiers who liberated it? If not, what was he doing in Poland?

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"I have learned from my mistakes, and I am sure I can repeat them exactly."

Well Ropey - my grandmother died like five years ago, but those WW2 injuries she carried a lifetime with her. So will everybody who lived at that time, noticing their school class going emptier and emptier, sustaining themselves on items you could hardly describe as food...

WW2 killed 60 million in total, 3% of the population: if you count other war injuries (eg my granddad died over having to work with toxic paint dusing the Arbeitseinsatz) you'll get over 80 million. The estimated range of Jews killed goes from 4,9 million to 5,9 million. These are the Jews that identifyably died because of the Holocaust. How do you list a Jew that was in hiding but died of famine/disease/bombing? Counting is difficult.
And then, you'd still need to count Roma, Sinti, Jehova's Witnesses, ethnic Poles, the handicapped...

(rant cut short when she notices FZ music played under a show about Ralph Inbar)

What did Truman know about Japan? My guess is zilch.

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Which might very well approach the truth...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d42dMSAltnQ

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Rope, I really recommend this movie. It's over 90 minutes, but it is really worth it. I'd be interested to hear your comments...
https://archive.org/details/Mr.Death.Th ... .Jr.DVDRip

It explains why Zündel maybe deserved a prison sentence.

As to the Jews making enemies of Hitler, don't you think they would be slightly suspicious of a chancellor who wrote the following in 1925...

Mein Kampf Volume Two - A Reckoning Chapter XV: The Right of Emergency Defense
"If at the beginning of the [First World] War and during the War twelve or fifteen thousand of these Hebrew corrupters of the people had been held under poison gas, as happened to hundreds of thousands of our very best German workers in the field, the sacrifice of millions at the front would not have been in vain. On the contrary: twelve thousand scoundrels eliminated in time might have saved the lives of a million real Germans, valuable for the future. But it just happened to be in the line of bourgeois 'statesmanship' to subject millions to a bloody end on the battlefield without batting an eyelash, but to regard ten or twelve thousand traitors, profiteers, usurers, and swindlers as a sacred national treasure and openly proclaim their inviolability."

Made the following speech in January 1939...

Hitler's speech of January 30, 1939 before the Reichstag
"One thing I should like to say on this day which may be memorable for others as well as for us Germans: In the course of my life I have very often been a prophet, and have usually been ridiculed for it. During the time of my struggle for power it was in the first instance the Jewish race which only received my prophecies with laughter when I said that I would one day take over the leadership of the State, and with it that of the whole nation, and that I would then among many other things settle the Jewish problem. Their laughter was uproarious, but I think that for some time now they have been laughing on the other side of their face. Today I will once more be a prophet: If the international Jewish financiers in and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations once more into a world war, then the result will not be the Bolshevization of the earth, and thus the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe!"

Repeated the same threat and indicated that his prophecy was being carried out...

Hitler's speech of November 8, 1942 in Munich
"Another power, too, which was very strong in Germany has meanwhile been able to learn from experience that the National Socialist prophecies are no mere phrases; it is the main power to which we owe all this misfortune-international Jewry. You will recall the Reichstag session at which I declared: "If Judaism imagines by any chance that it can bring about an international world war for the extermination of the European races, the result will not be the extermination of the European races, but the extermination of the Jews in Europe.
They have always derided me as a prophet. Today countless numbers of those who laughed at that time, laugh no longer. Those who are still laughing now, also will perhaps laugh no longer after a while . . . will spread beyond Europe and over the whole world. International Jewry will be recognized in all its demoniac peril. We National Socialists will see to that. This peril is recognized in Europe, and country after country is adopting our legislation. Thus today we see in this vast struggle only one single possibility; it is that of complete success, and there now remains only the question of whether there are any reasons at all to doubt this success."

Confirmed that his prophecy had been carried out in 1945...

Hitler's Political Testament, April 1945
"I left no doubt about the fact that if the peoples of Europe were again only regarded as so many packages of stock shares by these international money and finance conspirators, then that race, too, which is the truly guilty party in this murderous struggle would also have to be held to account: the Jews! I further left no doubt that this time we would not permit millions of European children of Aryan descent to die of hunger, nor millions of grown-up men to suffer death, nor hundreds of thousands of women and children to be burned and bombed to death in their cities, without the truly guilty party having to atone for its guilt, even if through more humane means."

He also had a Reichsführer SS who held a speech in Posen declaring the following...

Reichsführer SS Himmler Speech in Posen to the SS officers October 4th, 1943
"I am now referring to the evacuation of the Jews, to the extermination of the Jewish people. This is something that is easily said: "The Jewish people will be exterminated," says every Party member, "this is very obvious, it is in our program -- elimination of the Jews, extermination, will do." Most of you here know what it means when 100 corpses lie next to each other, when 500 lie there or when 1,000 are lined up. To have endured this and at the same time to have remained a decent person -- with exceptions due to human weaknesses -- had made us tough."

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The Dutch curse word for German is "mof". It's a lot older than WW2 - the earliest instance in print dates from 1574 - and comes from the German word Muff, which is what you would call a grumpy person. Initially it was used to refer to German soldiers, later to German immigrants, still later to Germans in general. By the 19th century the negative notion it had was barely noticeable and the word became commonly used.
This changed strongly during and after WW2 - it's now akin to Gerry in the English language and is not commonly used anymore.

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