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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:01 am 
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Guys I'm no longer going to debate this as I'm certain it will only fall on deaf ears, but without a doubt, hi-res blu-ray recordings match vinyl to my ears, standard CD, does not. It all started with hearing the difference with proper SACD's and it's been going on ever since. Certainly a different recording method however unless of cause it's PCM conversion instead of a DSD direct but then that's a whole other debate again.

Essentially PCM won out when it comes to the SACD side of the pond.

Gentle Giant sounds better in hi-res blu ray than the standard CD, so does King Crimson. Black Sabbath Sabotage the super deluxe box set was the most disappointing release I've obtained in a long time in standard CD.
Likewise I found Joe's Garage to be better in hi-res from Qobuz than the CD version I have and contrary to other statements, Qobuz declare there not simply upsamples but direct from the master tapes samples. Believe what you will, I can only go by what I'm told on that one.

To conclude why do peoples ears prefer to hear a vinyl for analog recordings than the perfectly excepted CD? There has to be a reason other than nostalgia and most hi-fi fans do not listen to vinyls with cracks and pops, there fanatics about keeping the records in pristine clean condition to avoid that.

I'm just going to go with the fact our ears are analog(fact) so it makes sense that the closest you can match that original waveform, the better it's going to be. To my ears it's like going from an 16 bit graphic file to a 24bit graphic file. Oh hell yeah you can tell. People always jump on the frequency limit of human hearing but there's simply more to it than that and that is perfect replication. lower resolution does not make for perfect replication because it simply can't. In analogue terms I'd compare it to the days when you could purchase all different types of cassette tapes. Everyone quickly learned the cheaper tapes would always give you the worst sound copy of the original.

Few debate that CD is better than vinyl and I couldn't agree more that vinyl beats it hands down, however without a doubt the hi-res recordings coming out now, finally match it to my ears, so I'll keep seeking out proper hi-res recordings for digital albums. I'm not saying everyone else has to, like all new formats there's always going to be nay sayers but then if we didn't seek to advance these things we'd all still be using wind up phonographs with mono 78's etc.

The one new format I do draw a firm line at is this SHM-CD, where there trying to make the case that perfect manufacturing of a CD will improve your sound. As it's a digital stream of information, this is a complete load of Tomy rot and a greedy record company marketing ploy to try and get you to pay 3 times the price of a standard album. Some will argue that hi-res could be part of this conspiracy as well but honestly, it definitely sounds warmer to my ears and the fact I couldn't tell the difference between my King Crimson Islands vinyl and the Blu-ray hi-res transfer needle drop convinced me it's a winner. I never got that from CD of which the original Islands on CD I purchased years ago was in fact a sampled vinyl to CD because something was wrong with the master tapes at the time they decided to bring out a CD of that album. When I compare that CD to the Blu-ray hi-res version there's no comparison, the blu-ray blows it out of the water. Obviously there's greater volume but above all warmth depth and spine tingling treble I'm not getting from the original CD that's for sure. Is it because of the remaster? Who can say. What I will tell you is that there is a noticeable drop in dynamics and the audible sounds are not as rich when going from a home 24bit 96KHz to a down sampled 16bit 44.1KHz recording, that's for sure and for certain and hey if we now can simply have the original actual recorded medium with no down sampling then what's wrong with that? Let a fan have the closest most accurate replication they possibly can, why risk a dilution of the audio when you no longer have to?

Just my thoughts on the matter and it's got someone who refused to go the MP3 route for there music collection because there crap compared to a standard CD and that's a fact. The age of getting better sound quality is upon us and I'm all for it. If you don't think there's a difference well then stick with CD. For my money I compare it to film and it's like going from DVD to Blur-ray and I'm all for it.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:12 pm 
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THE ZAPPA BAND - LIVE IN SARATOGA SPRINGS - 23RD OF AUGUST 2021

INCREDIBLE. These guys are on fire and all original members sound like they never stopped playing these pieces. At first I was concerned for Joe Travers as replacing the great Chad Wackerman would not be an easy feat by any stretch of the imagination but way to go Joe, your playing was superb and did justice to the pieces. Jamie Kime I'd heard thanks to ZFT and in this show he delivers an even better performance than I'd anticipated. Every member of this band is in top form and I'm wishing this Covid crisis would sod off so I can head on over state side and check them out. Best of all as there performing with King Crimson it would be one of the first concert events in a long time where I've actually wanted to hear the supporting act period.

For those that missed the 1988 tour, this band is as close to that calibre as your ever going to hear and how wonderful that's it's a live performance.

Don't worry polydigm and Twenty Small Cigars, you can purchase the concert in 16bit 44.1KHz format(and not pay extra for it) or any other down sampled converted medium you prefer, there really is a format to suit everyone on Qobuz.

Looking forward to any other concerts they care to share with us.

Enjoy fellow fans, Zappa's music rocks on LIVE.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:07 am 
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Location: Pouting for you? Punky Meadows, pouting for you?!!
Christ on a bike, I love your definition of no longer debating this.

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The way I see it Barry, this should be a very dynamite show.



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:55 am 
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Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
I know I should just let this thread die but hopefully this info helps some folks:

I have listened to all four shows made available thus far (yes, the hi-res versions) and they are just unmixed board recordings with a layer of reverb applied.

The quality is not bad but certainly not the caliber of an official release. If you were at these shows, they would certainly be fine souvenirs of the evening.

The performances are excellent, but certainly not to the level of the 1988 band, that's just crazy talk.

I can't imagine that the hi-res versions reveal any sonic details that are not audible on the 16/44 versions.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:58 pm 
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Spaceresearcher wrote:
THE ZAPPA BAND - LIVE IN SARATOGA SPRINGS - 23RD OF AUGUST 2021

INCREDIBLE.

For those that missed the 1988 tour, this band is as close to that calibre as your ever going to hear and how wonderful that's it's a live performance.
.


That's a nice sentiment. My following commentary is not criticism on your sentiments but more-so how the Zappa Band is so very much more than a Zappa touring and standard from 1 tour. This band can play with the standard of any touring Frank Zappa band.

I care not for debate with anyone but more-so The Zappa Band has the ability to sound like many different element of a wide variety of FZ touring bands.

In the case with a comment of Chad Wackerman , Joe's sound using Chromezilla is ever encompassing of so many tone colors of many Zappa drummers. Now I love Chad's playing but in 1988 the use of electronics is something FZ wanted and Joe sounds so much more like Terry Bozzio, Vinnie Colaiuta and elsewhere than any need to focus on a concept of drum sound specifically of 88 Chad , and but also 84, 82 or 81 drum sound.

With Miles Davis, he was doing the same thing at the end with Aura, his drummer Vincent Wilbern Jr was using electronic drums because that is what Miles wanted. We can only take that as a composers intent at that time. Same with Chad in 88'. Love it but The Zappa Band digs deeper than just trying to sound like some 1988 arrangement elements.

Joe does not need to sound like one specific drummer from one specific tour, he sounds like all of them in a blender. Joe is a powerhouse.

You put that John Bonham feel with any element of any Zappa drummer and you have Joe Travers. Joe is a drummer's drummer. A reason why so many have called him and that Frank Zappa himself said to Dweezil , now you have a drummer. This was after Ansley Dunbar and Terry Bozzio was playing for Dweezil. Yes, when Frank saw Joe Travers play live in DZs band he stated now you have a drummer. And that was early on, Joe is so much more today than be was in the 90s.

No one has studied the techniques or tapes as much as Joe Travers but clearly The Zappa Band is not the 1988 band nor do they overtly try to be. Nothing against the 88 Band but we can see in the 11 songs from this latest tour alone that The Zappa Band digs deep into many tone colors of FZs canon and the 88 Band was amazing for that moment in time.

The so called level of musicianship In The Zappa Band is at the standard of all Zappa bands. Jamie Kime can sound like Adrian Belew , Frank Zappa and Allan Holdsworth. His solo on City of Tiny Lights and the overall arrangement of COTL is on par with any official Zappa release.But this is not a contest, it's just a performance to a standard and the Zappa Band nails it on every song, every musician, the sum of the parts.

Now I just spoke on 2 members that did not play in a Frank Zappa touring band but every musician is WOW.

I have hopes for The Zappa Band isolated production analysis, like was done with those classic Album TV productions. Isolate these musicians. It's WOW, every second counts. They came prepared and were on duty. With limited rehearsal, short set and WOW.

I can only suggest fans listen to the tapes with open eyes and ears. Play it loud. Yes Front of House without post production mixing, but still the tapes sound amazing along with many live official releases.

I was fortunate to see 5 live shows this tour, currently QoBuz has 2 shows of the shows I have seen, yes I listen to the shows I have not seen. It's great to hear the road traveled by the band. For anyone to label these Zappa Band recordings as souvenirs, as if only a token for those that went to the shows, well surely some think that about Frank's best edits.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 5:31 am 
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Trendmonger wrote:
Spaceresearcher wrote:
THE ZAPPA BAND - LIVE IN SARATOGA SPRINGS - 23RD OF AUGUST 2021

INCREDIBLE.

For those that missed the 1988 tour, this band is as close to that calibre as your ever going to hear and how wonderful that's it's a live performance.
.


That's a nice sentiment. My following commentary is not criticism on your sentiments but more-so how the Zappa Band is so very much more than a Zappa touring and standard from 1 tour. This band can play with the standard of any touring Frank Zappa band.

I care not for debate with anyone but more-so The Zappa Band has the ability to sound like many different element of a wide variety of FZ touring bands.

In the case with a comment of Chad Wackerman , Joe's sound using Chromezilla is ever encompassing of so many tone colors of many Zappa drummers. Now I love Chad's playing but in 1988 the use of electronics is something FZ wanted and Joe sounds so much more like Terry Bozzio, Vinnie Colaiuta and elsewhere than any need to focus on a concept of drum sound specifically of 88 Chad , and but also 84, 82 or 81 drum sound.

With Miles Davis, he was doing the same thing at the end with Aura, his drummer Vincent Wilbern Jr was using electronic drums because that is what Miles wanted. We can only take that as a composers intent at that time. Same with Chad in 88'. Love it but The Zappa Band digs deeper than just trying to sound like some 1988 arrangement elements.

Joe does not need to sound like one specific drummer from one specific tour, he sounds like all of them in a blender. Joe is a powerhouse.

You put that John Bonham feel with any element of any Zappa drummer and you have Joe Travers. Joe is a drummer's drummer. A reason why so many have called him and that Frank Zappa himself said to Dweezil , now you have a drummer. This was after Ansley Dunbar and Terry Bozzio was playing for Dweezil. Yes, when Frank saw Joe Travers play live in DZs band he stated now you have a drummer. And that was early on, Joe is so much more today than be was in the 90s.

No one has studied the techniques or tapes as much as Joe Travers but clearly The Zappa Band is not the 1988 band nor do they overtly try to be. Nothing against the 88 Band but we can see in the 11 songs from this latest tour alone that The Zappa Band digs deep into many tone colors of FZs canon and the 88 Band was amazing for that moment in time.

The so called level of musicianship In The Zappa Band is at the standard of all Zappa bands. Jamie Kime can sound like Adrian Belew , Frank Zappa and Allan Holdsworth. His solo on City of Tiny Lights and the overall arrangement of COTL is on par with any official Zappa release.But this is not a contest, it's just a performance to a standard and the Zappa Band nails it on every song, every musician, the sum of the parts.

Now I just spoke on 2 members that did not play in a Frank Zappa touring band but every musician is WOW.

I have hopes for The Zappa Band isolated production analysis, like was done with those classic Album TV productions. Isolate these musicians. It's WOW, every second counts. They came prepared and were on duty. With limited rehearsal, short set and WOW.

I can only suggest fans listen to the tapes with open eyes and ears. Play it loud. Yes Front of House without post production mixing, but still the tapes sound amazing along with many live official releases.

I was fortunate to see 5 live shows this tour, currently QoBuz has 2 shows of the shows I have seen, yes I listen to the shows I have not seen. It's great to hear the road traveled by the band. For anyone to label these Zappa Band recordings as souvenirs, as if only a token for those that went to the shows, well surely some think that about Frank's best edits.


Thank you so much for sharing and please continue to do so, it was wonderful to read and I envy you being able to attend the concerts in person, oh the joy it must be. I got to see Dweezil a couple of years ago and his band was superb but these were the actual guys Frank played with and I was honestly gob smacked with how they have never let there practice or enthusiasm die, there all amazing. Hope my comments on Joe were not to underrated and I agree with you, he's an awesome drummer in his own right. ROCK ON!!!!!!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 5:33 am 
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200 Motels to get a HI-RES release along with the deluxe CD box set. AWESOME!!!!!


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