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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:45 am 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
Why does anyone need a middleman between themselves and FZ's music? I'm not going to relegate Zappa's music to the background while I pay attention to Charles Ulrich. The music speaks for itself.


This is such a bizarre criticism because you seem to take Charles's book for the opposite of what it is. It is not a book of Charles Ulrich's opinions or interpretations of FZ's output. Charles hasn't put himself in the book at all, and in no way attempts to serve as a "middleman" between FZ and the listener. It's a purely factual tome, and anyone who cares to really understand where FZ was coming from will find it a treasure trove. It's the Mother lode of conceptual continuity.

The thing is that FZ's music does not speak for itself. His recordings are crammed with obscure references, musical quotes, in-jokes, cross-references, bits of pop-culture that few in 2018 would remember, and so on, and Zappa would have been the first to tell you that the only person who really understood the whole Project-Object was himself. Well, Charles's book will get you about as close as a mere mortal is going to get. Charles was a highly erudite Zappa scholar to begin with, and after spending a decade and a half in serious research, consultation with band members and other Zappa associates, and constant contact with an international network of fans/Zappa nerds (full disclosure: including me, though my contributions were minor) he has come up with an encyclopedia that will enhance the enjoyment and understanding of Zappa's work for anyone who cares to dig below the surface, and sets the record straight where FZ didn't (incomplete personnel credits on albums, inaccurate statements in interviews that have been taken as gospel), and tells the story behind all those names on the album sleeves. If you think that listening to the records is all there is to Zappa appreciation, then maybe this book isn't for you. But if you want to learn where it came from, what it means, and who contributed to building the "output macrostructure," this is an invaluable resource.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:41 am 
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Shrewnews wrote:
downer mydnyte wrote:
Why does anyone need a middleman between themselves and FZ's music? I'm not going to relegate Zappa's music to the background while I pay attention to Charles Ulrich. The music speaks for itself.


This is such a bizarre criticism because you seem to take Charles's book for the opposite of what it is. It is not a book of Charles Ulrich's opinions or interpretations of FZ's output. Charles hasn't put himself in the book at all, and in no way attempts to serve as a "middleman" between FZ and the listener. It's a purely factual tome, and anyone who cares to really understand where FZ was coming from will find it a treasure trove. It's the Mother lode of conceptual continuity.

The thing is that FZ's music does not speak for itself. His recordings are crammed with obscure references, musical quotes, in-jokes, cross-references, bits of pop-culture that few in 2018 would remember, and so on, and Zappa would have been the first to tell you that the only person who really understood the whole Project-Object was himself. Well, Charles's book will get you about as close as a mere mortal is going to get. Charles was a highly erudite Zappa scholar to begin with, and after spending a decade and a half in serious research, consultation with band members and other Zappa associates, and constant contact with an international network of fans/Zappa nerds (full disclosure: including me, though my contributions were minor) he has come up with an encyclopedia that will enhance the enjoyment and understanding of Zappa's work for anyone who cares to dig below the surface, and sets the record straight where FZ didn't (incomplete personnel credits on albums, inaccurate statements in interviews that have been taken as gospel), and tells the story behind all those names on the album sleeves. If you think that listening to the records is all there is to Zappa appreciation, then maybe this book isn't for you. But if you want to learn where it came from, what it means, and who contributed to building the "output macrostructure," this is an invaluable resource.

Thank you!! 8)


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:31 am 
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Maybe lapsed is busy, but shouldn't there be someone eagerly eating popcorn about now? :o
Well, this is a book that I'm currently reading and of course I enjoy a healthy deb... awrite downer, finish this up so I don't have you as a devil figure over my shoulder when I'm reading the book tomorrow at lunchtime! :D

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:17 pm 
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Charles Ulrich has done an awesome job with this , more detail than a very detailed thing !

And what Shrewnews said .


Last edited by tinkamok on Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:52 pm 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
Maybe lapsed is busy, but shouldn't there be someone eagerly eating popcorn about now? :o


Here he comes... :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:00 pm 
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Plook wrote:
Here he comes... :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:27 pm 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
All of the album credits and lyrics are online. What are we left with? Detailed commentary on 1,663 tracks. Charles Ulrich dancing about architecture.

I hope no impressionable young people read any of this book before they get a chance to experience Zappa's music on it's own terms . Music "writers" are always trying to control other people's perspectives. They can't seem to let the art just be.

Why does anyone need a middleman between themselves and FZ's music? I'm not going to relegate Zappa's music to the background while I pay attention to Charles Ulrich. The music speaks for itself.

"Charles's book will be the next best thing to being in the room with Frank."
––– Scott Thunes

As if Zappa spent his time sitting around analyzing his past albums.


I've heard the music. Many, many, many times. Decades before this book came out. I've made my judgement already. I want to now learn what some of the process was.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:10 am 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
All of the album credits and lyrics are online. What are we left with? Detailed commentary on 1,663 tracks. Charles Ulrich dancing about architecture.

I hope no impressionable young people read any of this book before they get a chance to experience Zappa's music on it's own terms . Music "writers" are always trying to control other people's perspectives. They can't seem to let the art just be.

Why does anyone need a middleman between themselves and FZ's music? I'm not going to relegate Zappa's music to the background while I pay attention to Charles Ulrich. The music speaks for itself.



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:42 am 
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:mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:46 pm 
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sleeping in a jar wrote:
downer mydnyte wrote:
All of the album credits and lyrics are online. What are we left with? Detailed commentary on 1,663 tracks. Charles Ulrich dancing about architecture.

I hope no impressionable young people read any of this book before they get a chance to experience Zappa's music on it's own terms . Music "writers" are always trying to control other people's perspectives. They can't seem to let the art just be.

Why does anyone need a middleman between themselves and FZ's music? I'm not going to relegate Zappa's music to the background while I pay attention to Charles Ulrich. The music speaks for itself.



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I'll have to show Boris this one, he will get a big kick :smoke:


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:32 pm 
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How do you make it to Carnegie Hall? Finish the Introduction, the Acknowlegements, the A's and the B's.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:31 am 
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#sorryi'mlate
#doubleyourpleasure

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:29 am 
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Yes maps, yer right. We should give downer a more thorough response. A longer one anyway.

dancing about architecture - A familiar quote. This quote is often useful to relay the idea that art cannot be administered by placebo.
However, i would like to propose that one does not read about music as a substitute for music, rather to gain perspective which can add to the experience of music.

So for The Big Note, I concede that the Encyclopedia portions of the book are largely superfluous. But, when added to the comments on the individual tunes, the result is illuminating. For example, for Amnerika, we get some notes on the construction, a quote from Ali Askin about hocketing and then something I never knew...

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Granted, a hard-core ear may eventually notice such things, but I never have and will be comparing them in the near future.

Lastley, there are the Bathroom Reading sections. The inset story for CPIII is...
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Many inset stories are biographies, but for this one, I found out that there is a CPIII that I've never heard! Another FZ trail to explore!

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:03 am 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:

So for The Big Note, I concede that the Encyclopedia portions of the book are largely superfluous. But, when added to the comments on the individual tunes, the result is illuminating. For example, for Amnerika, we get some notes on the construction, a quote from Ali Askin about hocketing and then something I never knew...

Image

Granted, a hard-core ear may eventually notice such things, but I never have and will be comparing them in the near future.



You never noticed this? I thought you were Hard Core! The Amnerika melody as a vignette, is part of what makes Thing Fish such an important part of the catalogue.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:06 am 
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Nope, I listen to TF about once a year. Not really enough to say Ive studied it with respect to CPIII.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:12 am 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
Nope, I listen to TF about once a year. Not really enough to say Ive studied it with respect to CPIII.

I never knew or noticed that either. There's hard core, really hard core, and really really hard core. I'll admit to only being hard core at this point. :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:57 pm 
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KUIII wrote:
The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
Nope, I listen to TF about once a year. Not really enough to say Ive studied it with respect to CPIII.

I never knew or noticed that either. There's hard core, really hard core, and really really hard core. I'll admit to only being hard core at this point. :lol:


:lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:38 am 
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Gray_Ghost wrote:
KUIII wrote:
The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
Nope, I listen to TF about once a year. Not really enough to say Ive studied it with respect to CPIII.

I never knew or noticed that either. There's hard core, really hard core, and really really hard core. I'll admit to only being hard core at this point. :lol:


:lol:


Depressingly , after nearly 40 yrs of listening and reading ,and after reading many of the posts on this site , I think I may only be "core" :?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:46 am 
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^^^^^ 40 years, soft core at the very least :wink: ^^^^^

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:19 am 
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Gray_Ghost wrote:
^^^^^ 40 years, soft core at the very least :wink: ^^^^^


My core appears to be horribly lacking !
Perhaps if I listen some more :idea: :D

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:43 am 
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I certainly don't think I'm the crust, though feel free to disagree. I was mantle since the early 80s, then around the 2000s I briefly progressed to the outer-inner core (OIC). Unfortunately, we know that the OIC is liquid and that the Hard Core is strictly limited to the inner-inner core (IIC). While I have visited those in the IIC on occasion, I don't think I'll ever, sniff, graduate to the level of truly being one of the IIC myself. To get there, I'd probably have to write some kinda massive FZ compendium or something, hahaha

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:57 am 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
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I certainly don't think I'm the crust, though feel free to disagree. I was mantle since the early 80s, then around the 2000s I briefly progressed to the outer-inner core (OIC). Unfortunately, we know that the OIC is liquid and that the Hard Core is strictly limited to the inner-inner core (IIC). While I have visited those in the IIC on occasion, I don't think I'll ever, sniff, graduate to the level of truly being one of the IIC myself. To get there, I'd probably have to write some kinda massive FZ compendium or something, hahaha


Brilliant ! :lol: :lol: :lol:

All we can do is keep on drillin' ! :D

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:57 am 
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I was headed to the crust to make my way to the core by way of the ocean and inevitably I was distracted off course... :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:31 am 
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We should all proceed with caution !

The core is believed to be made of some kind of heavy metal .

I don't want that . :)

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:39 am 
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Yeah, I think thats true. Just the guitar player though.

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