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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:52 pm 
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KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
pbuzby wrote:
KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
I wonder if in the Vault there's a decent recording of that concert.


Presumably the multitracks that FZ and Lennon both used still exist.

Ah! But how do we get to them,seems to be the question.Yoko or Gail? That's a tough pair to draw to.


Oh crap.... you never got your copy of the keys to the vault, Kapt Kirk? Soooooo sorry about that! :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:10 pm 
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^ :mrgreen: ^ I always loose my keys anyway! :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:13 am 
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The $600 that Zappa generously volunteered to pay to The Union in order to perform an encore in 1971 had the same purchasing power as $3,550 in 2016. This amount is obtained by multiplying $600 by the percentage increase in the CPI from 1971 to 2016. 8)

FZ: I'd like to tell you something. I'd like to play an encore for you. But we have a union problem in this house. We have to leave the stage at exactly that time, or it's gonna cost another $600 for us. We'd have to pay $600 to play for you. I would like to say this: I'll be happy to pay $600 to play for you. We're gonna do an encore now.

We'd like to dedicate this part of our program to the union men who are sitting backstage counting their overtime money.

And also to the people who make up those kind of rules and keep 'em inflexible so that you can't really work with the thing. You know what I mean?


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:34 pm 
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It's one of the few areas that FZ comes off look stupid and petulant. Yes Frank, people work for a living and they have a start time and an end time - and expect to get paid for their time. Not everyone can be a composer/musician/artist creating their own work or performing for people. Most of us do boring or difficult jobs and would rather be somewhere else. Sometimes Frank spoke like he and his work was the only thing that existed in the world. Everyone else existed just to service his needs.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:24 pm 
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Max Lobster wrote:
It's one of the few areas that FZ comes off look stupid and petulant. Yes Frank, people work for a living and they have a start time and an end time - and expect to get paid for their time. Not everyone can be a composer/musician/artist creating their own work or performing for people. Most of us do boring or difficult jobs and would rather be somewhere else. Sometimes Frank spoke like he and his work was the only thing that existed in the world. Everyone else existed just to service his needs.


I'm not sure this is the case. What do non-union states do when a concert goes over? I haven't heard of them charging more. But it's something I'm not really educated about.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:36 pm 
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calvin2hikers wrote:
Max Lobster wrote:
It's one of the few areas that FZ comes off look stupid and petulant. Yes Frank, people work for a living and they have a start time and an end time - and expect to get paid for their time. Not everyone can be a composer/musician/artist creating their own work or performing for people. Most of us do boring or difficult jobs and would rather be somewhere else. Sometimes Frank spoke like he and his work was the only thing that existed in the world. Everyone else existed just to service his needs.


I'm not sure this is the case. What do non-union states do when a concert goes over? I haven't heard of them charging more. But it's something I'm not really educated about.


Unions overcharge when curfew is broken in many cities, especially in NYC, where it's the absolute worst. In fact, this is one of the reasons why FZ couldn't stand most unions and wasn't able to record several shows because of it. And I'm glad FZ brought this to our attention...

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:42 am 
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Disco Dumbass wrote:
calvin2hikers wrote:
Max Lobster wrote:
It's one of the few areas that FZ comes off look stupid and petulant. Yes Frank, people work for a living and they have a start time and an end time - and expect to get paid for their time. Not everyone can be a composer/musician/artist creating their own work or performing for people. Most of us do boring or difficult jobs and would rather be somewhere else. Sometimes Frank spoke like he and his work was the only thing that existed in the world. Everyone else existed just to service his needs.


I'm not sure this is the case. What do non-union states do when a concert goes over? I haven't heard of them charging more. But it's something I'm not really educated about.


Unions overcharge when curfew is broken in many cities, especially in NYC, where it's the absolute worst. In fact, this is one of the reasons why FZ couldn't stand most unions and wasn't able to record several shows because of it. And I'm glad FZ brought this to our attention...


Oddly enough, members of these particular unions, the ones that rip people off, are Trump supporters/endorsers.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/30/busi ... nions.html

http://www.npr.org/2016/03/07/469462350 ... -democrats

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/labor ... le/2573359

http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/02/trump ... snt-happy/

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-2 ... -incredibl

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pow ... 3210a43c6e


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:43 pm 
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Tweedle-Dumb-Diane-Bean-Counter wrote:


Debatable at best. :roll:

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:29 pm 
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The point is why should anyone be expected to work for free or forced to work past quitting time? Sure you or I would have volunteered Those people working at the hall - that's there job. That night it was FZ - next night could be Nana Mouskouri or Ukrainian folk dancing. Sure you or I would have volunteered to work that day but the staff were likely not interested in FZ so to stay late for free seems unrealistic. FZ wasn't going to get his way and he was annoyed, well sad to say but the world didn't revolve around Frank and he should be smarter than to act all petulant. FZ tended to lack empathy in these matters.

Sure glad he recorded that night though - love this set.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:07 am 
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Disco Dumbass wrote:



Only debateable in your "alternative fact" based universe. The evidence proves otherwise. There' is no debate in reality. You probably didn't bother to even check one single link I posted.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:32 am 
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Mr. Nice Guy wrote:
The $600 that Zappa generously volunteered to pay to The Union in order to perform an encore in 1971 had the same purchasing power as $3,550 in 2016. This amount is obtained by multiplying $600 by the percentage increase in the CPI from 1971 to 2016. 8)

FZ: I'd like to tell you something. I'd like to play an encore for you. But we have a union problem in this house. We have to leave the stage at exactly that time, or it's gonna cost another $600 for us. We'd have to pay $600 to play for you. I would like to say this: I'll be happy to pay $600 to play for you. We're gonna do an encore now.

We'd like to dedicate this part of our program to the union men who are sitting backstage counting their overtime money.

And also to the people who make up those kind of rules and keep 'em inflexible so that you can't really work with the thing. You know what I mean?
I say Zappa was "generous" because he didn't have to play those last 15 minutes. The Persuasions opened with a 30-minute set, followed by Zappa's 3-hour set. He could have easily stopped there, and most of the audience would have gone home satisfied they had seen a full show. Or, maybe, Zappa wanted The Mud Shark on tape . . .or, maybe, he really was "happy to pay $600 to play" an encore for the fans.

8)


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:43 pm 
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Tweedle-Dumb-Diane-Bean-Counter wrote:
Only debateable in your "alternative fact" based universe. The evidence proves otherwise. There' is no debate in reality. You probably didn't bother to even check one single link I posted.


You don't even LIVE in reality. So fuck off.

Max Lobster wrote:
The point is why should anyone be expected to work for free or forced to work past quitting time? Sure you or I would have volunteered Those people working at the hall - that's there job. That night it was FZ - next night could be Nana Mouskouri or Ukrainian folk dancing. Sure you or I would have volunteered to work that day but the staff were likely not interested in FZ so to stay late for free seems unrealistic. FZ wasn't going to get his way and he was annoyed, well sad to say but the world didn't revolve around Frank and he should be smarter than to act all petulant. FZ tended to lack empathy in these matters.

Sure glad he recorded that night though - love this set.


No one said or implied that people should work for free. So your 'point' is moot. The REAL point is made by FZ when he makes it clear how idiotic unions are, especially when they overcharge...

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:22 am 
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Delusional Trumpanzee wrote:
SPACEBROTHER wrote:
Only debateable in your "alternative fact" based universe. The evidence proves otherwise. There' is no debate in reality. You probably didn't bother to even check one single link I posted.


You don't even LIVE in reality. So fuck off.


....in other words, you still got nothing. Nothing debateable about how delusional you are.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:13 pm 
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Disco Boy wrote:

No one said or implied that people should work for free. So your 'point' is moot. The REAL point is made by FZ when he makes it clear how idiotic unions are, especially when they overcharge...


Your characterization of "overcharge" is erroneous. It's not overcharging when it is in the signed agreement and labour laws. So if the agreement is that building staff works until a certain hour and anything beyond that is a certain charge, then that's the charge - it's not an overcharge. The contracts are signed, the agreement is made. If you want the staff to waive the charge or you get bitter about the signed agreement being enforced - then yeah, someone expects people to work for free. Who knows maybe security stopped a potential Trevor Howell that night - that would have been $600 well spent.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:52 pm 
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Tweedle-Dumb-Diane-Bean-Counter wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
Tweedle-Dumb-Diane-Bean-Counter wrote:
Only debateable in your "alternative fact" based universe. The evidence proves otherwise. There' is no debate in reality. You probably didn't bother to even check one single link I posted.


You don't even LIVE in reality. So fuck off.


....in other words, you still got nothing. Nothing debateable about how delusional you are.


This coming from someone who's almost never correct about a damn thing.

Max Lobster wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
No one said or implied that people should work for free. So your 'point' is moot. The REAL point is made by FZ when he makes it clear how idiotic unions are, especially when they overcharge...


Your characterization of "overcharge" is erroneous. It's not overcharging when it is in the signed agreement and labour laws. So if the agreement is that building staff works until a certain hour and anything beyond that is a certain charge, then that's the charge - it's not an overcharge. The contracts are signed, the agreement is made. If you want the staff to waive the charge or you get bitter about the signed agreement being enforced - then yeah, someone expects people to work for free. Who knows maybe security stopped a potential Trevor Howell that night - that would have been $600 well spent.


It's an overcharge...

This is a song about the union, friends
How they fucked you over and the way they bends
The rules to suit a special few
And you gets pooched every time they do

You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)

Once upon a time the idea was good
If only they'd a done what they said they would
It ain't no better, they's makin' it worse
The labor movement's got the Mafia curse

You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)

Don't be no fool, don't be no dope
Common sense is your only hope
When the union tells you it's time to strike
Tell the motherfucker to take a hike

You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)

You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
(Ray: Have a good thing . . . )
(Ike: You gotta stick, you gotta stick, yeah . . . )
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
(Ray: I paid my union dues)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
(Ike: And my benefits ran out the other day, yeah . . . )
(Ray: Say I'm gonna buy me a Japanese car)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
(Ike: I gotta need, yeah, I have a need)
(Ray: Talkin' 'bout manic!)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
(Ike: But things on the supply side ain't too good for me today)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
(Ray: I'm going to Tokyo, y'all)
(Ike: I know you told me I gotta be at the end line)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
(Ray: Detroit turned into an awful cold town)
(Ike: Unemployment line, unemployment line)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
(Ike: I wanna know, I wanna know, I wanna know, yeah . . . )
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
(Ike: Oh yeah . . . )
(Ray: Said my check was in the mail . . . )
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)
(Ike: Get in the line!)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together) (Ray: Talkin' 'bout supply-side economics, y'all)
You know we gotta stick together
(People we gotta stick together)

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:22 pm 
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Embarrassing lyrics. a rare misfire by FZ.

and quoting lyrics is not a real counter, so - ya got nuthin'


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:44 pm 
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Max Lobster wrote:
Embarrassing lyrics. a rare misfire by FZ.

and quoting lyrics is not a real counter, so - ya got nuthin'


You're joking, right?! :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:08 pm 
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the joke is a grown man taking the lyrics to "Stick Together" as gospel. Unfortunately FZ decided to focus on how unions on occasion, made recording or performing a bit too expensive for him, and decided to trash all unions and union members. Ham-fisted to say the least.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:55 pm 
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Max Lobster wrote:
the joke is a grown man taking the lyrics to "Stick Together" as gospel. Unfortunately FZ decided to focus on how unions on occasion, made recording or performing a bit too expensive for him, and decided to trash all unions and union members. Ham-fisted to say the least.


On occasion?! ROTF! :mrgreen:

You're totally missing the point.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:13 am 
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I'm really amazed that someone wants to speak poorly of any person who has passed away. (It's known as stomping on someone's grave and it's extremely disrespectful to say the least.)

In essence I felt compelled to defend my favourite composer of the 20th century by putting forward the following points.

1. It is certainly fair to expect payment for services rendered. No arguments here.
2. Volunteer work would allow for some latitude if it were possible.
3. I'm sure no fan would have cared if some of the security guards and excess staff went home and left a small crew to lock up when the ticket purchasing audience and fee charged band had finished.
4. Frank Zappa set the right example here. He was willing to go above and beyond and provide and encore for his fans for nothing. An added bonus, a gift to them. He didn't have to do that either. How would you feel if you were watching a concert, the band comes back onto the stage to play and then the leader of the band says: "Attention, attention, we are so glad you want to hear more of our music and we really want to play it for you, but before we do, you all need to put $1 into the buckets that are passing around until we make enough to pay for the extra time as it's an excess cost that I'll have to pay to a couple of people who obviously don't appreciate our business."
I'm sure most people would walk out and be rather cheesed off.

So in short, Frank Zappa was prepared to deliver value for money, why can't the Unions allow for this same value. Allowing for just 20 -30 mins more, surely isn't that much of an ask. If it is, all I can say is that the greedy individuals who have benefited from the ticket sales and the charges to the artist direct for the use of there venue are pretty darn mean to say the least. Is there any area of life where you get paid for everything you do for anyone? Well I certainly haven't that's for sure and adding that bit extra promotes good service and value for both the audience who are ultimately pumping money into the venue and the artist who surely deserves to be given a little latitude when they have completely sold out a venue.

If Frank had demanded 5 more hours out of everyone then it would be a fair enough case, but demanding to be paid for every single minute over a contract is just plain mean and petty to say the least.

In short I'd say the Unions need to allow a little flexibility if there going to split hairs over a 15 minute or less encore. If I added up all the extra time I'd put into my current job for example and not been paid for it, I'd be on double income but what looks better to the employer? To have put in that little bit extra each day and achieved goals. Or to fall short, run off at exactly the time and leave a mess for the next shift. No, in my own professional stance, I couldn't allow that.

So no, I don't think Frank was out of line, I think he was perfectly justified and I think some people are just way to greedy and miss the bigger picture. It's not all about take, it's also about giving and that's all Frank was trying to do for the people who had not only supported him, they had supported indirectly, the Unions, the workers, the ticket sellers and the venue. Without those people and Frank's amazing music, the Unions, the workers, the venue etc would have received NOTHING AT ALL. That's worth considering to and I don't think the Unions are being fair here at all. There certainly not thinking of the bigger picture. Pretty simple really. People getting paid again next time the artist comes to town and hires them again, or being cheesed off and not giving them any payment at all ever again. So when these guys think there justified all there really doing is risking there income. Word travels quickly in music circles and if less and less major acts come, ultimately that's a big loss for everyone.

The famous line makes perfect sense: "People we gotta stick together!!!"


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:18 am 
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Onto a happier note, I'm looking forward to finally hearing these concerts. I've had trouble obtaining them but there available from a several online sources including the Zappa site which means if your like me and havn't heard them either, now's a great chance to rectify that. :)


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:22 am 
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Spaceresearcher wrote:
I'm really amazed that someone wants to speak poorly of any person who has passed away. (It's known as stomping on someone's grave and it's extremely disrespectful to say the least.)...

That's why I always tell people Adolf Hitler was a really smart guy, who knew how to achieve his goals. A great leader, God rest his soul.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:54 am 
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Adolf Hitler died a lunatic and will be forever declared a monster.

Was he always though? What about the factors that lead him to what he became?

We've all seen 'Full Metal Jacket.' and 'A Clock Work Orange.' In some way there are other factors that contributed to what he became and these are often over looked. Please note I am not defending the actions of Hitler but I would mention that he was originally an artist, a painter and someone that we could have all called normal at some point. Before you go thinking he was the most evil person in the world and oh the horror of what he did to the jews.

I'd like to alert you to the following, which never seems to get any media attention because perhaps there's a lot of jewish influence on the media(not to mention there attack on Sheik Yerbouti).

https://mysteryworshipers.wordpress.com ... olsheviks/

2 Wrongs don't make a right, that's for sure but perhaps Hitler was not the sole mad man when it boils down to it. There were many parties who were also in the wrong at the time. The worst part was the people who actually carried out the plans. Essentially great evil triumphs when good people fail to do nothing.

Just as there are terrible uses of time committed by individuals there's good in every one. Either at some point in there life or all through it. Perhaps I'm just to philanthropic but ending the hatred begins with moving on and not speaking of it.

Yikes, now you've made me get all deep and meaningful.

Look to conclude, using Adolf Hitler as an example against not stomping on someones grave in a forum for the great Frank Zappa just isn't cool. For crying out loud!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PS. If this post is offensive to anyone, I do apologize but I've only put forward some factual information in an attempt to point out that if someone wants to put someone else who can no longer defend themselves down, there's always someone worse to shift the focus to. Better to simply respect what 'is', right? None of us can change the past we can only strive to make the future better.

PPS. At the end of the day, I think I'll just stick to Frank's belief in Freedom of speech. I just admire Frank Zappa and don't see why anyone would want to speak ill of him, that's all. Such wonderful work and the hard working person he was should be and deserves to be celebrated.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:55 am 
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Would it be too much to actually focus on this recording?


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:00 am 
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calvin2hikers wrote:
Would it be too much to actually focus on this recording?

Sure thing!

Oh, by the way...

Spaceresearcher wrote:
Adolf Hitler died a lunatic and will be forever declared a monster.
Was he always though? What about the factors that lead him to what he became?

He was a vegetarian. That says it all, right there.

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