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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:56 am 
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brainpang wrote:
Trendmonger wrote:
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Really, man. Trendy needs to do a search for "4cd mofo" and really find out what illegal downloads are all about. Now those bastids ought to be shut down. The fan trading stuff? If the ZFT has a problem with the fan scene, let them deal with it and I will support their decision.


I am aware of one in Russia and reported that to Gail.
I also was less than happy to see it being sold on E-bay.
I am not sure if the resale of Official Product is legal but let's just say that any sale of Official Product lacks any form of intergrity whatsoever.
That being a special product and olnly recently being released makes it even worse, Ah come on now people I don't care who you are have some class.


So if I'm ever in desperate need of cash I should let my children starve before selling MY PROPERTY? You've really lost it, chum. Make yourself useful and go track Al Queda or something...


If you are ever in that situation I would sincerely feel bad for you and hope that your pocessions of value of selling were something quite different to Official FranK Zappa merchandise. As far as anyone selling Official merchandise that may or may not be a legal action. I beleive buying a CD only gives you the right to listen to the CD in private use. Resale or public performacne may require soething quite different than just buying the item. It is not YOUR PROPERTY for resale. I beleive it is only for PRIVATE LISTENING.

As far as the individual (no name calling here) who I noticed selling the Big MOFO on E-bay it is to the best of my understanding that this individual in no way whatsoever was desperate for cash to support their starving children but moreso possibly just adding another item to their personal Freak Out Trend of Merchadise that hey wer selling on E-Bay. It quickly was removed before the bid time was over and without naming names it was probably just that indivuduals mometary lack of reasoning in deciding to sell it with a bunch of other stuff E-bay. I think they just removed the item from the sale out of respect to the artist once they realized it was wrong in the first place. If indeed this is the case, which is of a very high probability, Ii give that person credit for comming to terms with the correcting the so called wrong intent of non authorized sale of Big MOFO.

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We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:14 am 
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Trendmonger wrote:
It's not that you don't care about the artist. I beleive you are a bonafied a Zappa fanatic. I i know you want to hear everything and anything Official Or Not by just about any means possible but many of these means just do not given any respect to the artist rigths or artistic integrity especialy once Oficial releases are released.


Have you ever purchased a USED CD or LP at a store that carries USED stuff instead of a new copy at a store that only sells new stuff?

If you have then you are hurting an artist in that way more than the trading of live concert recordings ever has!! Artist do not get royalties from the sale of used CDs.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:30 am 
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Trendmonger wrote:
[As far as the individual (no name calling here) who I noticed selling the Big MOFO on E-bay it is to the best of my understanding that this individual in no way whatsoever was desperate for cash to support their starving children but moreso possibly just adding another item to their personal Freak Out Trend of Merchadise that hey wer selling on E-Bay. It quickly was removed before the bid time was over and without naming names it was probably just that indivuduals mometary lack of reasoning in deciding to sell it with a bunch of other stuff E-bay. I think they just removed the item from the sale out of respect to the artist once they realized it was wrong in the first place. If indeed this is the case, which is of a very high probability, Ii give that person credit for comming to terms with the correcting the so called wrong intent of non authorized sale of Big MOFO.


I saw that Big MOFO listed and it was Pamela DesBarres. I bought an FZ shirt from her one time on eBay. Call the police!

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:01 am 
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Could someone with an authoritative knowledge about US copyright laws please step in and settle the score? All this is just too much opinionated crap! Please, just the fact. I don't care anout your feelings. Just facts, just for once!

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:18 am 
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the sale of a CD from your personal collection is not illegal assuming

a.) that you have NOT copied it in anyway

and

b.) have not distributed copies (if any)

However, if somebody is selling copies of a disc (i.e. the Russian Federation ones floating around), that is illegal. Technically, any trading/downloading etc... of bootleg recordings is illegal. If someone were to buy something from Barfko-Swill, listen to it once, NOT copy it, and then put it on eBay (the Big MOFO from this thread for example), then that would be legal. Since the person purchased the disc, it becomes their personal property to do with as they please barring any sort of copyright infringement. In fact, every CD released nowadays has an impilicit warning detailing all of the ways that someone could infringe on copyright.

So, in summary:

Downloading any bootlegs (zappateers), officially released material (bitTorrent), or videos (you tube) is by any account illegal and causes the ZFT to lose money

Sales of any CDs from a personal collection, assuming they have not been copied in some way, is perfectly legal. Any used music store will also only give you "fair market value" for any disc. So, you sell a disc, get a maximum of $4 (a loss for the store), which they then sell for $8 (hopefully making a $4 profit when the CD sells). The stores, in fact, generally take a loss on this which is why trade values are higher than cash values.

Ebay is an online market place. Sure, it's evil and all sorts of illegal things go on there, but with this (BIG MOFO), that is not the case.

And BTW, when the CD was originally purchased, the artist receieves the royalty. After that, that particular unit is no longer "on the books" and becomes the property of its purchaser. Therefore, when it is sold, it becomes the property of the store or individual it is sold to.
Interestingly enough, the artist sees the least amount of money from a CD sale. 60% goes to the head of the company, 35% goes to the staff who recorded the disc, 3% is for misc fees, and the artist is lucky to see 2% of the sales.
Hope this helps clarify some things. I learned many of these things from Media Law classes in college and from speaking with lawyers over the last 5 years. I am not an authority on this, but I have presented the knowledge to you to the best of my understanding.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:21 am 
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addendum to the previous post:

Anyone know if this will be available through actual stores as opposed to only Barfco? Thanks.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:22 am 
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Trendy. You're spouting rubbish, as usual. When you buy a CD, of COURSE it's your property.

Let's get back to the excitement and anticipation of the new CD instead of the ramblings of an incoherent idiot. (Yes that's YOU!)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:45 am 
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Dbdash2000 wrote:
Technically, any trading/downloading etc... of bootleg recordings is illegal. (...)

So, in summary:

Downloading any bootlegs (zappateers), officially released material (bitTorrent), or videos (you tube) is by any account illegal and causes the ZFT to lose money


Nice clarifying post, thanks.

I, most of all, know shit about copyright laws, but I can't understand trading/downloading ROIOs (Record of Indeterminate Origin) - your bootlegs - for free as illegal.

From my understanding it only can be considered illegal if it involves posterior profit ($$$) from selling of the content.

I think that in practice, it is up to the artist's (or copyright owner) discretion. Some stimulate the trading scene, some are vehemently against. Most don't bother with it at all.

I can't see this (zapateers) affecting the ZFT's income in anyway (unless they use the bootleg material to make new BTBs).

Dime (major trading community today), for example, has the strict policy of banning anything related to an official release, which would invalidate the torrent's legitimacy of the short AUD (audience) recording from Buffalo, have it been seeded there (for an example).

Before mp3, there were cassettes. I don't remember being told that to copy an album from a friend to my own personal enjoyment (without involving selling this copy) was illegal. ..

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:54 am 
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.....meanwhile, back at the ranch.....

EMI, Apple make music available without antipiracy software

2 April 2007--8:09am (ET) - By Simon Kennedy
LONDON (MarketWatch) -- U.K. music company EMI Group (UK:EMI) said Monday that it plans to make all its digital music repertoire available without any antipiracy software, adding that Apple Inc's (AAPL) iTunes Store will be the first to sell the new downloads. EMI said the move "will enable full interoperability of digital music across all devices and platforms." The firm added the music will also be at a much higher sound quality than existing downloads. "We believe that offering consumers the opportunity to buy higher quality tracks and listen to them on the device or platform of their choice will boost sales of digital music," EMI said.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:03 am 
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Me get full live 80's (official) show!! :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:06 am 
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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
Before mp3, there were cassettes. I don't remember being told that to copy an album from a friend to my own personal enjoyment (without involving selling this copy) was illegal. ..


Thanks to Mr Dash for the post.
As to Mr GG, cassettes/cd-r copying is illegal, outside of making copies for your immediate family (thank god, I dupe cd's from my collection for my 6 year old. No way he's getting his hands on the original). Recall that FZ said the PMRC hearings are, in part, a smokescreen for granting the Recording Industry a cut of the profits from the sale of blank tape. They ended up getting a piece of the action 'cause they convinced whomever in the government that they were getting ripped off. But the law still stands.
I wonder if they get a piece of blank cd-r's??? Those are multi-use so perhaps not.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:11 am 
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brainpang wrote:

I wonder if they get a piece of blank cd-r's??? Those are multi-use so perhaps not.


So are cassetes, or Blank VHS or whatever blank media we can come up with... I used to load computer data with a cassette, way back when...

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:16 am 
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Why do you think they wanted to tax the holy hell out of those blank media back in the 80s? Because it was something everyone wanted.


Woops... didnt see that post above mine.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:20 am 
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jimmie d killed the forum wrote:
.....meanwhile, back at the ranch.....

EMI, Apple make music available without antipiracy software

2 April 2007--8:09am (ET) - By Simon Kennedy
LONDON (MarketWatch) -- U.K. music company EMI Group (UK:EMI) said Monday that it plans to make all its digital music repertoire available without any antipiracy software, adding that Apple Inc's (AAPL) iTunes Store will be the first to sell the new downloads. EMI said the move "will enable full interoperability of digital music across all devices and platforms." The firm added the music will also be at a much higher sound quality than existing downloads. "We believe that offering consumers the opportunity to buy higher quality tracks and listen to them on the device or platform of their choice will boost sales of digital music," EMI said.


Yes the format of High Definition Downlaods is something that is starting to take off. 96Khz/24 Bit Downloads is something that MusicGiants devlivers that is even above and beyond many Digital Download outfits.

So weather or not any High Def Audio Dowloads was to have Anti-Piracy Software attatched to it or not it seems unrealistic to think that people will pay for the download from store X if Free Trade Torent Site Y could offer the same HD Audio Copy sans a fee that the artist deserves.

In the old days with Casettes it was a tape or two made here and there. In 2007 it is a big time corrupt business. For Itunes to make a statement shows they really don't care about each individual artists rigths. Yeah they will offer better quality downloads but what are they doing to protect the rigths of each artist?

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Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


Last edited by Trendmonger on Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:21 am 
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If yr as fascinated by this copyright stuff as I am, consider what has been going on in Europe (all the EU?) as to the art world.
Last I heard, a law is under consideration that in the event that the owner of a painting (or whatever) re-sells it at a higher price than purchased, he must share the profits with the artist/gallery. Highly controversial. Would the wealthy investors even bother to support a new artist? Are the pro artists/galleries shooting themselves in the foot? An initial sale to a prominent collector is generally what gets the big buzz going.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:25 am 
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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
brainpang wrote:

I wonder if they get a piece of blank cd-r's??? Those are multi-use so perhaps not.


So are cassetes, or Blank VHS or whatever blank media we can come up with... I used to load computer data with a cassette, way back when...


Yea, but you're obviously a nerd.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:29 am 
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brainpang wrote:
If yr as fascinated by this copyright stuff as I am, consider what has been going on in Europe (all the EU?) as to the art world.
Last I heard, a law is under consideration that in the event that the owner of a painting (or whatever) re-sells it at a higher price than purchased, he must share the profits with the artist/gallery. Highly controversial. Would the wealthy investors even bother to support a new artist? Are the pro artists/galleries shooting themselves in the foot? An initial sale to a prominent collector is generally what gets the big buzz going.


Check out the movie The Moderns.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0095649/
Image

It's a really good film. Anhow the character Bertram Stone played by John Lone in this film is an art buyer. He states that if he decided to buy a painting of dog shit for $1,000,000 in (1920's money) that it was worth a Million Dollars becaause that is what he paid for it.

This same buyer who thinks he rectly was fooled into purchasing Matisse copies that were actually otriginals starts chopping up the originals saying Matisse would never paint nipples like that. He just starts carving up those areolas.

The value of art is definitively about the artistic intent of the composer. The artist has a certain set of right. Human being who have no clue fuck with both. What we pay for art supports the artist financialy so he can continue his work and hopefully suport his family.

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Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


Last edited by Trendmonger on Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:34 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:29 am 
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Leave it to Trendy to take what was a cool thread discussing the new Buffalo 1980 release, and take it ridiculously off topic and into retardland.

Trendy, honestly, your pointless rants take away a lot of enjoyment I get from coming to these forums and discussing FZ's music with other fans who love the MUSIC. That's great that you've appointed yourself as Gail's little Snitch, but complaining about someone selling a CD is beyond stupid to me. WHAT DO YOU CARE? Is it illegal to sell a car you bought new as well?

God you have such negative fucking energy.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:38 am 
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brainpang wrote:
Yea, but you're obviously a nerd.


At least I am not a dickhead, as yourself, isn't it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BetaMax

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:39 am 
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Trennasol wrote:
Leave it to Trendy to take what was a cool thread discussing the new Buffalo 1980 release, and take it ridiculously off topic and into retardland.

Trendy, honestly, your pointless rants take away a lot of enjoyment I get from coming to these forums and discussing FZ's music with other fans who love the MUSIC. That's great that you've appointed yourself as Gail's little Snitch, but complaining about someone selling a CD is beyond stupid to me. WHAT DO YOU CARE? Is it illegal to sell a car you bought new as well?

God you have such negative fucking energy.


The way cool thread turned off topic when some Constantly Crying Forum Member said Fuck You Trendy before I even commented on this comming out. I have supported and enjoyed all Official Releases for the last 40 years so why would I not like this one.

Sincerely folks I am happy for all fans and we all are looking forward to the release. Unfortunately I did not drive to Buffalo for that show. The Palldium shows were soemthing special. From my memory some shows were cut short a bit compared to most Zappa shows as Frank was feeling pretty ill. Maybe all the AUD tape collectors have documented the 1980 Palladium Halloween run and can interject but Buffalo looks special. Can't wait to get my sweaty hands on this one. Should be here Tommorow or Wednesday.

I think we all await Buffalo with open ears regardless of any polished turd ideology factor.

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Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


Last edited by Trendmonger on Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:47 am 
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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
brainpang wrote:
Yea, but you're obviously a nerd.


At least I am not a dickhead, as yourself, isn't it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BetaMax


I was making a joke. We were discussing the Recording Industry and their "taxation," right? Then you pointed out how foolish I am, without actually making a clear point. Thus, my response. There ya go. ANYWAY, enough. I agree with terransol (sp?) that this thread should be about the music.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:53 am 
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Yeah seriously people stop being such a fana-diplodocus or whatever.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:56 am 
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Trendmonger wrote:
Trennasol wrote:
Leave it to Trendy to take what was a cool thread discussing the new Buffalo 1980 release, and take it ridiculously off topic and into retardland.

Trendy, honestly, your pointless rants take away a lot of enjoyment I get from coming to these forums and discussing FZ's music with other fans who love the MUSIC. That's great that you've appointed yourself as Gail's little Snitch, but complaining about someone selling a CD is beyond stupid to me. WHAT DO YOU CARE? Is it illegal to sell a car you bought new as well?

God you have such negative fucking energy.


The way cool thread turned off topic when some Constantly Crying Forum Member said Fuck You Trendy before I even commented on this comming out. I have supported and enjoyed all Official Releases for the last 40 years so why would I not like this one.

Sincerely folks I am happy for all fans and we all are lookind forward to the release. Unfprtunately I did not drive to Buffalo for that show. The Palldium shows were soemthing special. From my memory some shows were cut short a bit compared to most Zappa shows as Frank was feeling pretty ill. Maybe all the AUD tape collectors have documented the 1980 Palladium Halloween run and can interject but Buffalo looks special. Can't wait to get my hands on sweaty hands on this one. Shoudl be here Tommorow or Wednesday.

I think we all await Buffalo with open ears regardless of any polished turd ideology factor.


Tell me what I've cried about? I think the majority of people here would vote YOU the crybaby.

YOU are the only one who has even brought that up!! The "Fuck You Trendy" comment was made in reference to the fact that this release is a FULL SHOW. A complete and full show is something that the ZFT must be fully aware that the FANS like me want. It's not another "sampler" this time is it?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:08 am 
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Of course Trendy is the bigger crybaby, but to be fair, he must've made that commentary about your avatar, which does feature a guy crying a river, so to say.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:09 am 
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jaypfunk wrote:
Trendmonger wrote:
Trennasol wrote:
Leave it to Trendy to take what was a cool thread discussing the new Buffalo 1980 release, and take it ridiculously off topic and into retardland.

Trendy, honestly, your pointless rants take away a lot of enjoyment I get from coming to these forums and discussing FZ's music with other fans who love the MUSIC. That's great that you've appointed yourself as Gail's little Snitch, but complaining about someone selling a CD is beyond stupid to me. WHAT DO YOU CARE? Is it illegal to sell a car you bought new as well?

God you have such negative fucking energy.


The way cool thread turned off topic when some Constantly Crying Forum Member said Fuck You Trendy before I even commented on this comming out. I have supported and enjoyed all Official Releases for the last 40 years so why would I not like this one.

Sincerely folks I am happy for all fans and we all are lookind forward to the release. Unfprtunately I did not drive to Buffalo for that show. The Palldium shows were soemthing special. From my memory some shows were cut short a bit compared to most Zappa shows as Frank was feeling pretty ill. Maybe all the AUD tape collectors have documented the 1980 Palladium Halloween run and can interject but Buffalo looks special. Can't wait to get my hands on sweaty hands on this one. Shoudl be here Tommorow or Wednesday.

I think we all await Buffalo with open ears regardless of any polished turd ideology factor.


Tell me what I've cried about? I think the majority of people here would vote YOU the crybaby.

YOU are the only one who has even brought that up!! The "Fuck You Trendy" comment was made in reference to the fact that this release is a FULL SHOW. A complete and full show is something that the ZFT must be fully aware that the FANS like me want. It's not another "sampler" this time is it?


I am glad we got a Full Show. I have expected this type of release since Gail announced Vaulternative Records in 2002. I think more Full Shows will come along but in no way do I think projects are or should be limited to the idea of Full Shows. Not that you do but to call the Halloween DVD-A a Sampler just shows no appreciation for what that DVD-A project represents.

Anyhow now that a Full Show is upon us i a am sincerly happy for you Jayp just as I am happy fro All Zappa fans. There was no need to immediaately comment Fuck You Trendy in your first reply to the topic. I am a bit more sincere than you might think.

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Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


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