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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:22 am 
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Yesterday there was a whole bunch of additional information on the discography page, which seems to have been removed today...

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:28 am 
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SPACEBROTHER wrote:
....................back to the thread topic...

...Is it true that this is a combination of multi-track/SBD cassette masters? Is there a link to this informnation?


Someone copied it over into this thread if it's no longer on the site.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:30 am 
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SPACEBROTHER wrote:
....................back to the thread topic...

...Is it true that this is a combination of multi-track/SBD cassette masters? Is there a link to this informnation?


Yesterday i noticed a detailed write up, I beleive in Music Is The Best Discography Dection where in FranK Zappa - Music Is The Best! Official Discography section the buffalo Web page had a write up that I no longer see.

http://www.zappa.com/fz/discography/2007buffalo.html

Anyhow maybe they decided to change the documentation on that until the release so we can thoruoughly enjoy the liner notes but it seems that the engineering jobs for that day were less than accomodating. I am sure the ZFT & frank Fillipetti did a superb job but as I stated I beleive several 24 track tapes and I Soundboard Cassette(s) may have been necessary to complete the Full Show. Who knows. Even if the circumastance on that day made for engineerign difficulties if two 24 track tape machines di not catch every second or ther was soem other unkown factor/problem with a given 24 track tape at any given moment on that show it may have been necessary to use a Cassette fro the soundboard for a segment to make the Full Show. i'll tell you this it did make mention that the tapes had to be baked.

Shhhh it wil be heare in a few days. Maybe a surprize is in store whe the liner notes wil reveal more about the production and difficult circumstance. i remember soem other interesting legal jargon but I am leaving that all out here.

jayp poots forth............ :wink:


Last edited by Trendmonger on Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:33 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:36 am 
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jaypfunk wrote:
This was recorded Live at the Memorial Auditorium on 25 October, 1980, in Buffalo, NY.
“Oh,” says George Douglas, “the panties and bra tour.” On the phone he is suddenly right there right now 26 years later. George recalls it as a particularly brutal experience - “it was snowing like crazy, the coldest place I’ve ever been.” And that mixing from the set up onstage(!) was “pretty rugged.” And yet, for him touring with Frank Zappa remains a highlight in his lifelong career in Sound – an “amazing adventure with FZ totally all about the Music.” In order to put the concert together in its entirety we (UMRK) went “warts ‘n all” style with the 3 sources that George had available to cover the show: 2” 24 Track Machine / 1” 8-Track Machine / one cassette board tape. All the multi-track master tapes had to be baked in the Utility Muffin Research Kitchen convection oven prior to transfer. All of the transfers were done at UMRK. We then sent everything on a hard drive to Frank Filipetti in New York.



Is Trendy going to call this a "polished turd" now because a cassette SBD source was used??


Let's just say the ZFT did what they had to delvier this full show from the Heard. In 2007 the equipment used to make the polished turd segments of that Full Show are much better than they were during the Beat The Boots Polished Turd era. In the hands of a consumate professional, Frank Fillipetti, I am assured did magic his magic with 96Khz/24 bit Nuendo Files made at UMRK from all three sources. Where it states George had available to cover the show: 2” 24 Track Machine / 1” 8-Track Machine / one cassette board tape this Full Show Warts n' All I amagine the ZFT cooked and transfered it to Nuendo where Frank Fillipetti then worked on it.

I eagerly await the UPS delivery.


Last edited by Trendmonger on Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:47 am 
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jaypfunk wrote:
Trendmonger wrote:
jaypfunk wrote:
This was recorded Live at the Memorial Auditorium on 25 October, 1980, in Buffalo, NY.
“Oh,” says George Douglas, “the panties and bra tour.” On the phone he is suddenly right there right now 26 years later. George recalls it as a particularly brutal experience - “it was snowing like crazy, the coldest place I’ve ever been.” And that mixing from the set up onstage(!) was “pretty rugged.” And yet, for him touring with Frank Zappa remains a highlight in his lifelong career in Sound – an “amazing adventure with FZ totally all about the Music.” In order to put the concert together in its entirety we (UMRK) went “warts ‘n all” style with the 3 sources that George had available to cover the show: 2” 24 Track Machine / 1” 8-Track Machine / one cassette board tape. All the multi-track master tapes had to be baked in the Utility Muffin Research Kitchen convection oven prior to transfer. All of the transfers were done at UMRK. We then sent everything on a hard drive to Frank Filipetti in New York.



Is Trendy going to call this a "polished turd" now because a cassette SBD source was used??


Let's just say the ZFT did what they had to delvier this full show from the Heard. In 2007 the equipment used to make the polished turd segments of that Full Show are much better than they were during the Beat The Boots Polished Turd era. In the hands of a consumate professional, Frank Fillipetti, I am asured this Full Show Warts n' All is everything I could expect it to be.

I eagerly await the UPS delivery.


What in the fuck are you talking about?? The BTB releases were DIRECT COPIES of the original bootleg LPs and were not made from any FZ tapes!! You do know that, right??


There are Bootlegs of Zappa material made from direct copies of FranK Zappa's SBDs.

Yes I do know that, but SBD Cassettes are at times used for bootlegs.
In the case with Buffalo I beleive that was transfered to Nuendo wher frank Fillipetti worked on it. in teh sections of that Full Show tha required usage of the Nuendo Files that were derived from the Cassette SBD Frank Fillipettin could weak that mix that in the project. Much diferent than your average SBD even if only a small wart section of SBD was used fro Buffalo.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:49 am 
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I bet the info on the website was pulled as they appeared to be the liner notes. That's why I didn't read 'em. May as well wait until it's in my greedy little hands.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:50 am 
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brainpang wrote:
I bet the info on the website was pulled as they appeared to be the liner notes. That's why I didn't read 'em. May as well wait until it's in my greedy little hands.


Good point. The Brainpang is working well. Maybe as usual they wanted to keep the surprize for us. It's quite some story and I expect more liner notes to boot. Could have just been an oversight in web development decisions. I am not noting that mikey made an error here. HE did a great job with the website and I ahve yet to even coment on that. Kudos Mikey. I never expected anything less from you. Anyhow that initial inclusion could just have been an oversight by anyone involved.

I just hope a Fanaskeptasaureous mind does not start posting the ZFT withdrew that information because they think any given fan may not buy this release becasue they see Warts n' All as part of the production notes before usign their ears themselves on the Full Project.


Last edited by Trendmonger on Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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FZ's guitar at its most obscene + Vinnie gone wild = I wonder what happens during the solos. 8)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:08 pm 
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jaypfunk wrote:
Trendmonger wrote:
jaypfunk wrote:
Trendmonger wrote:
jaypfunk wrote:
This was recorded Live at the Memorial Auditorium on 25 October, 1980, in Buffalo, NY.
“Oh,” says George Douglas, “the panties and bra tour.” On the phone he is suddenly right there right now 26 years later. George recalls it as a particularly brutal experience - “it was snowing like crazy, the coldest place I’ve ever been.” And that mixing from the set up onstage(!) was “pretty rugged.” And yet, for him touring with Frank Zappa remains a highlight in his lifelong career in Sound – an “amazing adventure with FZ totally all about the Music.” In order to put the concert together in its entirety we (UMRK) went “warts ‘n all” style with the 3 sources that George had available to cover the show: 2” 24 Track Machine / 1” 8-Track Machine / one cassette board tape. All the multi-track master tapes had to be baked in the Utility Muffin Research Kitchen convection oven prior to transfer. All of the transfers were done at UMRK. We then sent everything on a hard drive to Frank Filipetti in New York.



Is Trendy going to call this a "polished turd" now because a cassette SBD source was used??


Let's just say the ZFT did what they had to delvier this full show from the Heard. In 2007 the equipment used to make the polished turd segments of that Full Show are much better than they were during the Beat The Boots Polished Turd era. In the hands of a consumate professional, Frank Fillipetti, I am asured this Full Show Warts n' All is everything I could expect it to be.

I eagerly await the UPS delivery.


What in the fuck are you talking about?? The BTB releases were DIRECT COPIES of the original bootleg LPs and were not made from any FZ tapes!! You do know that, right??


There are Bootlegs of Zappa material made from direct copies of FranK Zappa's SBDs.

Yes I do know that, but SBD Cassettes are at times used for bootlegs.
In the case with Buffalo I beleive that was transfered to Nuendo wher frank Fillipetti worked on it. in teh sections of that Full Show tha required usage of the Nuendo Files that were derived from the Cassette SBD Frank Fillipettin could weak that mix that in the project. Much diferent than your average SBD even if only a small wart section of SBD was used fro Buffalo.


STFU and learn to fucking proof read your posts! They are already a waste of time as it is but then everyone has to try and figure out what you are really trying to say based on all the spelling errors! You are a nuisance!!

You still didn't address the original question..... what the fuck do the BTB releases have anything to do with Buffalo? You are making shit up AGAIN!!!
Stop crying again Jayp I did answer. A SBD was used in this Warts N All Full show ffor it was necessary to get the Full Show. It spells it all out what the ZFT did baking them. While not noted here they transfer them to Nuendo 96khz/24 bit Files that frank Fillipettti does his work with. The ZFT never let Masters leave the confines of the UMRK. Tehy convert then to Nuendo 96Khz/25 bit Masters.

So the section of the Concert that required the Nuendo Files made from the SBD no matter if it was 10 seconds or 5 minutes they can be sonically improved to weave better with multi-track tape Nuendo Files to engineer the whole thing out. Frank Fillipetti can do so much more with Nuendo than what had been done with Beat The Boots Direct Transfers from the Bootlegs.

Soemtimes bootleggers used SBDs but they never used any sonic improvements. Really let's stop argueing now.


Last edited by Trendmonger on Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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VCF wrote:
FZ's guitar at its most obscene + Vinnie gone wild = I wonder what happens during the solos. 8)

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Awesome pic. I'd never seen that before. Thanks!


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VCF wrote:
FZ's guitar at its most obscene + Vinnie gone wild = I wonder what happens during the solos. 8)

vcf


This reminds me of a picture I've seen of Frank with a guitar in the shape of a woman's body. Have anyone seen this also?!

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:59 pm 
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a monster 23 min Torture Never Stops.. Pick Me I'm Clean, Easy Meat ( 20 mins), Chungas Revenge, City Of Tiny Lites (another 20 mins).....+ The “Real World” Thematic Extrapolations , whatever that is... waraarrgh i can't hardly stand the wait!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:10 pm 
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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
Dbdash2000 wrote:
Technically, any trading/downloading etc... of bootleg recordings is illegal. (...)

So, in summary:

Downloading any bootlegs (zappateers), officially released material (bitTorrent), or videos (you tube) is by any account illegal and causes the ZFT to lose money


Nice clarifying post, thanks.

I, most of all, know shit about copyright laws, but I can't understand trading/downloading ROIOs (Record of Indeterminate Origin) - your bootlegs - for free as illegal.

From my understanding it only can be considered illegal if it involves posterior profit ($$$) from selling of the content.


Yes, thanks for the clarification Dash. It confirmed my beliefs. So let us not be selfrighteous about the trading business. Yes, we trade and don't sell, but it is still illegal. It is theft of itellectual property. But as mentioned previsouly, as long as noone are generating profits, it is a theft that many artists learn to live with (and instead focus on nailing the bootleggers).

To MGG: What makes it illegal, even if no profits are made, is that you obtain free entertaiment out of a product (Zappa's compositions and performances) over which there is a copyright. The point being that you should actually have paid! You may have paid for a concert ticket, but that gave you the right to the music on the spot. Not a repeated listening. So listening to the show again infringes Zappa's copyright, and payment should have been made. Not to a bootlegger, of course, but to Zappa.

Apart from this, there is also a potential danger of diverting demand away from official products. That channel, however, is not important with Frank's music, as I guess we all buy everything to the extent we can.

Back to Buffalo!

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jimmie d killed the forum wrote:
VCF wrote:
FZ's guitar at its most obscene + Vinnie gone wild = I wonder what happens during the solos. 8)

Image


Another pic for my web site thanks :shock:

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OK HJ, to me it makes sense to some extent, but there might be legally other interpretations among so many different nations and regions...

HJ wrote:
Apart from this, there is also a potential danger of diverting demand away from official products. That channel, however, is not important with Frank's music, as I guess we all buy everything to the extent we can.


I belive the trading scene, obviously excluding illegal commerce of bootlegs, actually have the very opposite effect: converging demand to official products (of course it is just a guess)...

Fact is that without homemade AUD recordings and such (FM broadcasts, SB leaks, Authorised rcordings) much of the artist's history is gone forever...

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Trendmonger wrote:
Can't wait to get my sweaty hands on this one. Should be here Tommorow or Wednesday.


No. The order page at Barfko-Swill says it will be shipping at the week's end. Learn to read. Learn to write. And most importantly, learn to think.

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scarf wrote:
Trendmonger wrote:
Can't wait to get my sweaty hands on this one. Should be here Tommorow or Wednesday.


No. The order page at Barfko-Swill says it will be shipping at the week's end. Learn to read. Learn to write. And most importantly, learn to think.


Well, I'll have to say that the shipping options offered a delivery date of 4-4-07 if you wanted to pay extra.


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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
I belive the trading scene, obviously excluding illegal commerce of bootlegs, actually have the very opposite effect: converging demand to official products (of course it is just a guess)...


That is why it is encouraged/tolerated/ignored by the copyright owners.
In modified frankspeak: Some things illegal are actually good for you.
People have to go with their heart.


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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
Yesterday there was a whole bunch of additional information on the discography page, which seems to have been removed today...


It will go back on the discography page soon, but it's from the liner notes, and it's better if you can read it when you get the release. it was my error in putting it up.

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brainpang wrote:
I bet the info on the website was pulled as they appeared to be the liner notes. That's why I didn't read 'em. May as well wait until it's in my greedy little hands.


^^ What he said :)

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Trennasol wrote:
scarf wrote:
Trendmonger wrote:
Can't wait to get my sweaty hands on this one. Should be here Tommorow or Wednesday.


No. The order page at Barfko-Swill says it will be shipping at the week's end. Learn to read. Learn to write. And most importantly, learn to think.


Well, I'll have to say that the shipping options offered a delivery date of 4-4-07 if you wanted to pay extra.


Why thank you for adding that little info here Trennasol. Scarf like most Forum Members just seems to be ripping into anything and every little mistake they think I am making.

The order page at Barfko-Swill says what? it will be shipping at the week's end, that perception could have meant hey it's Sunday April 1st the first day of the week and your brain stopped there concluding that it would not ship until Saturday 4/7 the lastest.

Scarf I allready received my E-mail confirmation that my ordered is being processed. I spoke to Music Today, earlier Today and was informed that it may very well be shipped this evening or tommorow.

We'll have to wait and see.


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jaypfunk wrote:
Trendmonger wrote:
jaypfunk wrote:
Trendmonger wrote:
jaypfunk wrote:
Trendmonger wrote:
jaypfunk wrote:
This was recorded Live at the Memorial Auditorium on 25 October, 1980, in Buffalo, NY.
“Oh,” says George Douglas, “the panties and bra tour.” On the phone he is suddenly right there right now 26 years later. George recalls it as a particularly brutal experience - “it was snowing like crazy, the coldest place I’ve ever been.” And that mixing from the set up onstage(!) was “pretty rugged.” And yet, for him touring with Frank Zappa remains a highlight in his lifelong career in Sound – an “amazing adventure with FZ totally all about the Music.” In order to put the concert together in its entirety we (UMRK) went “warts ‘n all” style with the 3 sources that George had available to cover the show: 2” 24 Track Machine / 1” 8-Track Machine / one cassette board tape. All the multi-track master tapes had to be baked in the Utility Muffin Research Kitchen convection oven prior to transfer. All of the transfers were done at UMRK. We then sent everything on a hard drive to Frank Filipetti in New York.



Is Trendy going to call this a "polished turd" now because a cassette SBD source was used??


Let's just say the ZFT did what they had to delvier this full show from the Heard. In 2007 the equipment used to make the polished turd segments of that Full Show are much better than they were during the Beat The Boots Polished Turd era. In the hands of a consumate professional, Frank Fillipetti, I am asured this Full Show Warts n' All is everything I could expect it to be.

I eagerly await the UPS delivery.


What in the fuck are you talking about?? The BTB releases were DIRECT COPIES of the original bootleg LPs and were not made from any FZ tapes!! You do know that, right??


There are Bootlegs of Zappa material made from direct copies of FranK Zappa's SBDs.

Yes I do know that, but SBD Cassettes are at times used for bootlegs.
In the case with Buffalo I beleive that was transfered to Nuendo wher frank Fillipetti worked on it. in teh sections of that Full Show tha required usage of the Nuendo Files that were derived from the Cassette SBD Frank Fillipettin could weak that mix that in the project. Much diferent than your average SBD even if only a small wart section of SBD was used fro Buffalo.


STFU and learn to fucking proof read your posts! They are already a waste of time as it is but then everyone has to try and figure out what you are really trying to say based on all the spelling errors! You are a nuisance!!

You still didn't address the original question..... what the fuck do the BTB releases have anything to do with Buffalo? You are making shit up AGAIN!!!
Stop crying again Jayp I did answer. A SBD was used in this Warts N All Full show ffor it was necessary to get the Full Show. It spells it all out what the ZFT did baking them. While not noted here they transfer them to Nuendo 96khz/24 bit Files that frank Fillipettti does his work with. The ZFT never let Masters leave the confines of the UMRK. Tehy convert then to Nuendo 96Khz/25 bit Masters.

So the section of the Concert that required the Nuendo Files made from the SBD no matter if it was 10 seconds or 5 minutes they can be sonically improved to weave better with multi-track tape Nuendo Files. Frank Fillipetti can do so much more with Nuendo than what had been done with Beat The Boots Direct Transfers from the Bootlegs.

Soemtimes bootleggers used SBDs but they never used any sonic improvements.


You did not answer it and now this is SECOND time you are posting the same thing!!
You mentioned the BTB series in contrast to the Buffalo release. The BTB releases had NOTHING to do with any of Frank's tapes and he didn't do anthing thing to sonicly enhance them, they were direct copies of the original boots, so why did you compare them??

Here's what you said:
Let's just say the ZFT did what they had to delvier this full show from the Heard. In 2007 the equipment used to make the polished turd segments of that Full Show are much better than they were during the Beat The Boots Polished Turd era. In the hands of a consumate professional, Frank Fillipetti, I am asured this Full Show Warts n' All is everything I could expect it to be.


I want try to be a bit more specific. I am not loooking to argue.

- I never analyzed where every original Bootleg Tape came from that were directly transfered for the Beat The Boots Series.
- I realize Frank had little to do with that Beat The Boot Series as far as production except giving permission to release it as a project as is transferred to CD to beat the bootleggers at their own game because fans wanted this stuff.
- Bootleggers have a times used AUDs,SBDs and Pirated Copies of Official Works in Progress that were the physical property of Frank Zappa.
- A Bootleg or Beat The Boots Polished turd may contain SBD tapes that were taken from Franks SBD Board.

How about a Beat The Torrents
If every SBD, AUD or Pirated work-inprogress be it in FLAC or MP3 is made Officialy Available no matter what the price don't worry there is another 16,999 versiosn of Zappa's Nassau Colliseum 1988 show waiting in teh wings to help justify the Free Trade Mindset because they are all diferent in the eyes of the Free Trade Society.

Now my point is that even though Buffalo may very well contain a portion of SBD Cassette that it is transfered to Nuendo where a 96Khz/24 bit file is made of that tape no matter what the source of any tape is in the vault I bleive everything gets transfereed to Nuendo 96Khz/24 bit. These Nuendo Files are then worked on where Mixing, Eq and whatever effects necessary could be used and a new general Nuendo 96Khz/24 Master is made from a Project Concept. Soemtimes litle to nothing is added. Once the engineer and production decissions are made then a CD, DVD-A, DVD or whatever Master is made from that Nuendo Master to make all the product.

So even though part of Buffalo started out with a SBD what the ZFT, engineer and producers do with all the tapes to make complete the project is quite different than just a polished turd bootleg made from whatever tapes they used.

When I entered polished turd fro thsoe tapes it is not because of the tapes and what format they came from. My error. Truthfully what the ZFT does to produce these low level quality tapes such as Cassette into a project is quite amazing.


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Trennasol wrote:
scarf wrote:
Trendmonger wrote:
Can't wait to get my sweaty hands on this one. Should be here Tommorow or Wednesday.


No. The order page at Barfko-Swill says it will be shipping at the week's end. Learn to read. Learn to write. And most importantly, learn to think.


Well, I'll have to say that the shipping options offered a delivery date of 4-4-07 if you wanted to pay extra.


My mistake. I apologize. I didn't see that. Where did it say that? Shit, I would've done that if I'd known...crap.

(My statements about Trendmoner, however, I do not apologize for...really I or anybody could've said that in response to any number of posts he's made.)

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jaypfunk wrote:
Trendmonger wrote:
jaypfunk wrote:
Trendmonger wrote:
Trennasol wrote:
Leave it to Trendy to take what was a cool thread discussing the new Buffalo 1980 release, and take it ridiculously off topic and into retardland.

Trendy, honestly, your pointless rants take away a lot of enjoyment I get from coming to these forums and discussing FZ's music with other fans who love the MUSIC. That's great that you've appointed yourself as Gail's little Snitch, but complaining about someone selling a CD is beyond stupid to me. WHAT DO YOU CARE? Is it illegal to sell a car you bought new as well?

God you have such negative fucking energy.


The way cool thread turned off topic when some Constantly Crying Forum Member said Fuck You Trendy before I even commented on this comming out. I have supported and enjoyed all Official Releases for the last 40 years so why would I not like this one.

Sincerely folks I am happy for all fans and we all are lookind forward to the release. Unfprtunately I did not drive to Buffalo for that show. The Palldium shows were soemthing special. From my memory some shows were cut short a bit compared to most Zappa shows as Frank was feeling pretty ill. Maybe all the AUD tape collectors have documented the 1980 Palladium Halloween run and can interject but Buffalo looks special. Can't wait to get my hands on sweaty hands on this one. Shoudl be here Tommorow or Wednesday.

I think we all await Buffalo with open ears regardless of any polished turd ideology factor.


Tell me what I've cried about? I think the majority of people here would vote YOU the crybaby.

YOU are the only one who has even brought that up!! The "Fuck You Trendy" comment was made in reference to the fact that this release is a FULL SHOW. A complete and full show is something that the ZFT must be fully aware that the FANS like me want. It's not another "sampler" this time is it?


I am glad we got a Full Show. I have expected this type of release since Gail announced Vaulternative Records in 2002. I think more Full Shows will come along but in no way do I think projects are or should be limited to the idea of Full Shows. Not that you do but to call the Halloween DVD-A a Sampler just shows no appreciation for what that DVD-A project represents.

Anyhow now that a Full Show is upon us a am sincerly happy for you Jayp just as i am happy fro All Zappa fans. There was no need to immediaately comment Fuck You Trendy in your first reply to the topic. I am a bit more sincere than you might think.


I never said I didn't appreciate the work on the Halloween DVD-A I like it for wht it is, but the FACT still remains that because it is NOT the full concert it is a sampler of parts from a live show with surround sound.

Call it what it is. Just like when someone calls you a douche.


Many Rock & Rol fans think The Allman Brothers Live At The Fillmore East LP is one of the best Live LPs ever made. I never heard anyone calling that project a Sampler. You are so hung up on Full Shows from listening to all thes AUDs, SBDs and Pirated Works -In Progress that any live Project that is not a Full Show becomes a Sampler.

Then every Studio LP is a Sampler unless each and every second of studio Time was recorded and released from the minute you walk in the door. They are all Samplers.

Jayp you have your head so deep in those 1,000 plus AUDs, SBDs, and Pirated Works -In Progress that you loose so much focus on Artistic Integrity.

Now you were talking about douces. The old fashioned Enema bag douches that Michael Kenyan used. They had a Douche Attatchement that was narrow as compared to the enema nozzle. Each time a woman used the Douche bag it is only a Sampler Douche in the life of the Douche Bag. It's different today where msot women use the dispossable douches.

Sampler My Ass.

Jayp I gotta clue you in on something This Full Show is a Sampler of 3 tape Sources and to the best of my knowledge no Douche was involved.


Last edited by Trendmonger on Mon Apr 02, 2007 2:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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